Chinese purchase of Su-35

b787 · Jan 8, 2015

Dear reader,
You are holding a new issue of
the Take-Off magazine, a special
supplement to Russian monthly national
aerospace magazine VZLET, that has
been timed with Airshow China 2014.
By tradition, the aerospace exhibition
in Zhuhai has been attended by
numerous Russian participants and businessmen. Small wonder, because
the Russian-Chinese aerospace cooperation has been given a strong
impetus over the past more than 20 years. As a result, China has become
in 1990s a top importer of Russian aircraft, first and foremost, Sukhoi jets.
Today, the Russian-made Sukhoi Su-27SK/UBK and Su-30MKK fighters
are the mainstay of PLAAF’s new-generation fighter fleet while two dozens
Su-30MK2s serve with PLANAF. Moreover, China’s own aerospace
plants have mastered Su-27SK’s license production. The next step will
be a contract for deliveries of the advanced Sukhoi Su-35 multirole
supermanoeuvrable fighters to be signed in the nearest future.
Aero engines deliveries also have been high on the priority list of the
Russian-Chinese aviation cooperation, with these turbofans powering
both Russia-supplied and advanced indigenous Chinese fighters, the J-10
and FC-1 (JF-17), prototypes of Chinese 5th generation fighters, the J-20
and J-31, as well as Chinese brand-new heavy transport aircraft, the Y-20
debuting at Airshow China 2014. Russian experts also consult their
Chinese counterparts developing new aircraft with advanced Chinese
L-15 and L-7 trainer aircraft among them.
However, the Russian-Chinese cooperation does not limit itself to
fixed-wing aircraft. China operates more then a hundred Russian-made
Mil Mi-17 and Mi-171 helicopters and deliveries go on. Russian-made
Mi-26TC heavylifters have got a great success here in firefighting and
rescue operations. Recently China received new batches of Kamov
Ka-28, Ka-31 and Ka-32A11BC helicopters. So, the cooperation
has been on the rise, with new contracts for aircraft deliveries
and joint projects development to be placed in the future. One of
the most promising projects of such joint programmes could become
a prospective widebody airliner which Russian and Chinese engineers
are going to develop together.
I wish all participants and guests of Airshow China 2014 to meet their
partners, establish useful links and snag lucrative contracts.
Sincerely,
Andrey Fomin,
Editor-in-Chief,
Take-off magazine

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Russian point of view

rhino123 · Jan 8, 2015

b787 said:
The next step will
be a contract for deliveries of the advanced Sukhoi Su-35 multirole
supermanoeuvrable fighters to be signed in the nearest future.

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Russian point of view

Note the underlined words in bold. They have been saying in future or nearest future for years. Maybe twenty years down the road... we will still be seeing this, "contract for the Su-35 is going to be signed by the Chinese in the nearest future."

b787 · Jan 8, 2015

rhino123 said:
Note the underlined words in bold. They have been saying in future or nearest future for years. Maybe twenty years down the road... we will still be seeing this, "contract for the Su-35 is going to be signed by the Chinese in the nearest future."

it might happen it might not happen, what is interesting is that is one of the best Russian aviation Magazines and they have their magazines online too and in both Russian and English Languages

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their November Russian Issue has an article about Chinese Flankers, sadly the PDF is not available yet

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rhino123 · Jan 8, 2015

b787 said:
it might happen it might not happen, what is interesting is that is one of the best Russian aviation Magazines and they have their magazines online too and in both Russian and English Languages

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their November Russian Issue has an article about Chinese Flankers, sadly the PDF is not available yet

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Well... the Su-35 is an excellent aircraft, and if the Chinese find that it is in their needs to buy this aircraft, then good for them. However, in my opinion (not representing any experts or insider here), I find this aircraft practically of not much use to the Chinese presently... except maybe the engines department which is still better than anything the Chinese had currently... otherwise the J-16 is good enough and should tie the Chinese over till the J-20 and J-31 came online in near future.

Of course if it was political reason that the Chinese is buying the Su-35, then... it is out of our realm.

Tyloe · Jan 9, 2015

I don't whether is already pointed out, but maybe the other reason why the deal isn't signed is probably because of other costs and for maintenance as a lot of the parts which would be largely sourced to Russia if such a deal that the media claims it to be falls through. There seems to be strong speculation that Russia would emphasise on some kind of greater 'legal protection' around the su-35 during a negotiation. Technology transfer doesn't seem to be on the table which mean spare parts and maintenance for China's fleet would be sourced to Russia. This would also undermine Beijing's effort for self sufficiency.

From what I know, China hasn't signed a single foreign deal for whole military assets/vehicles, not parts, since the start of this century with the exception of the new Zubr-class which came with technology transfer. This came at the time ( during the early 2000s) the modernization program for the industry for air force and navy started to take more rapid shape. The PLAGF and the industry had arleady huge strides for self sufficiency has largely achieved it by now. Beijing is more likely to be on board with the deal if there is technology transfer which doesn't seem to be the case.

From this, they're likely repelled from the contact and would focus on continuing their schedule to complete the fifth gen programs, and begin developing the fleet of fifth gen aircraft in the 2020s.

With two fifth gen fast growing programs and a branching J-11 program for greater derivatives, a deal for a small fleet of Su-35s makes less sense, and if a deal is finally signed the 4.5th gen aircraft it would come by the time the fifth gen programs are ending especially for the J-20. Following the time it took when China to sign for Su-30MKKs to the first batch came in, it took about four years between late 1996 and late 2000 to happen. So if a deal is signed this year it won't be until at least in 2018 for China to see it's first Su-35s. And it might take even longer depending on Russia's future economy and Moscow's perspective of the new Suhkoi deal with China.

If all of this is considered than it would make practical sense if China doesn't sign the deal..

by78 · Jan 9, 2015

b787 said:
The next step will
be a contract for deliveries of the advanced Sukhoi Su-35 multirole
supermanoeuvrable fighters to be signed in the nearest future.

Do the Russians and Lockheed share the same marketing people?

Lockheed PR has been promising FOC for the F-35 in 2009, then 2010, then 2011, then 2012, then 2013... and now 2016/17.

And we have the Russians tellings us the Chinese would very soon purchase Su-35 in 2009, then 2010, then 2011, then 2012, then 2013, then 2014, and now 2015.

This is getting really annoying. I ain't buying it.

Time to lock the thread and re-open it only after the ink has dried on the dotted line.

But I digress, just as Elvis will never come back and a mouse will never fart the fifth symphony, the Su-35 purchase ain't gonna happen, ever, period!

Broccoli · Jan 9, 2015

SU-35 is going to be outdated or at least on it's way out by 2020 and I believe it would have been good fighter jet in 1990's when Eurocanards were still on their infancy and not ready for serious flying. 2008 is way too late for fighter like SU-35 to make it's first flight... just like Eurocanards it's a 4.5 gen fighter but it lacks stealth making it a lot more vulnerable than something like the J-31.

If the year was 2005 right now I would say that China should purchase at least 200 SU-35's but now when we have seen J-31 there is no point to waste billions on fighters what are going to be outdated soon enough. Even if the J-31 would have only 70% smaller RCS than SU-35 it would still have a edge over the SU-35.

wtlh · Jan 9, 2015

Broccoli said:
SU-35 is going to be outdated or at least on it's way out by 2020 and I believe it would have been good fighter jet in 1990's when Eurocanards were still on their infancy and not ready for serious flying. 2008 is way too late for fighter like SU-35 to make it's first flight... just like Eurocanards it's a 4.5 gen fighter but it lacks stealth making it a lot more vulnerable than something like the J-31.

If the year was 2005 right now I would say that China should purchase at least 200 SU-35's but now when we have seen J-31 there is no point to waste billions on fighters what are going to be outdated soon enough. Even if the J-31 would have only 70% smaller RCS than SU-35 it would still have a edge over the SU-35.

The J-31 and the Su-35 aren't in the same class. There are no comparison between the two. Su-35 is in the same class as J-20, albeit half generation behind.

BTW there is no indication that J-31 is ever going to enter PLAAF service either. As far as it is concerned, it is currently a technology demonstrator until it attracts a foreign buyer.

I am not saying China should, or is buying the Su-35s. Apart from the engines, and may be---a BIG may be---the radar, there isn't much the Su-35 has that China does not currently have already. Where will these Su-35s fit into the Chinese air-defence structure?

siegecrossbow · Jan 9, 2015

wtlh said:
The J-31 and the Su-35 aren't in the same class. There are no comparison between the two. Su-35 is in the same class as J-20, albeit half generation behind.

BTW there is no indication that J-31 is ever going to enter PLAAF service either. As far as it is concerned, it is currently a technology demonstrator until it attracts a foreign buyer.

I am not saying China should, or is buying the Su-35s. Apart from the engines, and may be---a BIG may be---the radar, there isn't much the Su-35 has that China does not currently have already. Where will these Su-35s fit into the Chinese air-defence structure?

The chances for J-31's eventual integration with PLAAF/PLAN is a heck of a lot greater than that of the Su-35.

Equation · Jan 10, 2015

Looks like the Russian media has been mistaken the Chinese from North Korea regarding the interests of buying their SU-35.

According to South Korean newspaper, Russia will not sell its Flanker-E (Su-35), $ 65 million worth, to North Korea to avoid further sanctions.

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North Korea is interested in buying Russian Flanker-E jet fighters.

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planned to buy Russian Flanker-E jet fighters.

The South Korean daily newspaper
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, quoting an appeal of the North Korea Workers' Party Politburo Presidium's member and Secretary of the Korea's Workers' Party, Ren Ho Choi, which he had made during his visit to Russia.

The authors of the article estimate that
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produce most of the weapons, but the construction of fighters requires modern technologies, which North Korea does not own."

The Special Envoy of the North Korean leader, Ren Ho Choi visited Russia in November 2014. During his visit he met with President Vladimir Putin and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.

Read more:
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The statements about the will of DPRK to buy fighters from Russia coincided with information from North Korean defector, arguing that North Korea has been preparing to
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, which would not allow the US to prevent the aggression.

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Here is another article.

North Korea’s Kim Jong-un sent a special envoy to Moscow to ask Russia to sell him its most advanced fighter jets, South Korean and Russian media are reporting.

On Thursday, a senior South Korean military official
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, a conservative South Korean daily newspaper, that North Korea officially asked Russia to sell it the Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jet. Notably, the Russian state-owned ITAR-TASS news agency
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the JoongAng Ilbo report on its website on Friday.

According to the original report, the request was made in November when Choe Ryong-hae, North Korea’s number two,
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as Kim Jong-un’s special envoy. During the trip, Choe met with Vladimir Putin and gave the Russian president a letter from Kim.

“Choe Ryong-hae, who visited Moscow as a special envoy of North Korean leader Kim Jong-un in November last year, asked Russian President Vladimir Putin to provide Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets,”JoongAng Ilbo quoted the military source as saying. The source added that he didn’t believe Russia would consent to the sale because of international sanctions against North Korea.

As Dave Majumdar
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last month, the Su-35 “is the most potent fighter currently in operation with the Russian Air Force. The powerful twin-engine fighter, which is an advanced derivative of the original Soviet-era Su-27, is high flying, fast and carries an enormous payload. That, combined with its advanced suite of avionics, makes the Su-35 an extremely dangerous foe to any U.S. fighter, with the exception of the stealthy Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor.”

The 4++ generation fighter jet would be a substantial upgrade over the North Korean Air Force’s current arsenal, which mostly consists of outdated Chinese and Russian platforms like the MiG-21 and Su-25. North Korea purchased these aircraft from Russia in the waning days of the Soviet Union.

North Korea has long sought more modernized aircraft to compete with the South Korean and American fleets. However, as the military source told JoongAng Ilbo, “The North produces many weapons systems domestically, but it appears to have sought Russia’s help because building fighter jets requires more complex technologies.”

It’s
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that North Korea has gone abroad in search of more modernized fighters. Kim Jong-un’s father and predecessor, Kim Jong-Il, asked Russia to sell it advanced fighter aircraft during summits in 2001 and 2002. Kim Jong-Il returned to Moscow in 2011 to again ask Russia to sell it fighter jets. That same year, the former North Korean leader also traveled to Beijing to ask then-Chinese President Hu Jintao to sell North Korea J-10 and J-11 stealth fighters. Hu rejected the request.

Even if Russia won’t sell Pyongyang the Su-35, Moscow has shown an interest in strengthening ties to the Hermit Kingdom in recent months. Last month, a Kremlin spokesperson announced that Putin has invited Kim Jong-un to Moscow in May of this year to celebrate the 70 anniversary of Nazi Germany’s defeat. If Kim accepts the invitation, it would be his first trip abroad since taking over power in North Korea following his father’s death in late 2011.

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Chinese purchase of Su-35

b787

Captain

rhino123

Pencil Pusher

b787

Captain

rhino123

Pencil Pusher

Tyloe

Junior Member

by78

General

Broccoli

Senior Member

wtlh

Junior Member

siegecrossbow

General

Equation

Lieutenant General