Chinese purchase of Su-35

thunderchief

Senior Member
I believe the Russians offered the same version as the VVS. They don't have the kind of money to make monkey models anymore, they stopped after the break up. You can say newer upgrades for the Su-35 may not be available immediately for China, that's probably about it.

In Soviet times, monkey models were usually aircraft with inferior avionics (good example would be MiG-23MS ) sold to "unreliable" Third World client states. Soviets were afraid that their latest and most advanced radars, ECCM equipment and some other things would fall into hands of Western opponents if some of those countries suddenly changes regime and switch sides . In those times, most of the avionics logic was "hard-wired" so you could actually learn a lot by getting your hands on one example .

In modern times, most of the avionics uses some kind of software for functioning . Also, system is modular, you could plug and play various equipment from different manufacturers (example Indian Su-30 MKI ) . Therefore, what China did get on their Su-30MKK and MK2 was based on their needs and willingness to pay, and same goes for other Su-30 buyers.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Actually, I believe the biggest obstacle to a deal is still the avionics and radar, but with a twist.

But first I think the record should be set straight here with regards to Russia only offering 'junk' to China before, that's mostly Indian wishful thinking, the Su27SK and Su30MKK were about as good as what Russia had available at the time.

The big difference between India and China was that China preferred to buy off-the-shelf and consequently got their kit years or even over a decade before the Indians for a fraction of the price.

China did also experiment with paying Russia to develop more advanced versions, which is where the MK2 and MK3 programmes came from. But both programmes were terminated after the first batch of 24 Mk2s were delivered because of a number of factors, the biggest and most important was the quantum leap the Chinese indigenous weapons industry went through in that time.

By the time the MK2s were delivered, Chinese domestic radar, avionics and weapons technologies all started to rival if not outstrip what the Russians could offer or even promise. At the same time, the balance of power in the Taiwan Strait had already tipped decisively in Beijing's favour.

As such, there was no real need to waste so much money on imported Russian kit that was noticably less advanced and capable than domestic offerings.

Today, that dynamic has not changed where it comes to radar, avionics and weapons, so the situation has actually been turned on its head. Rather than wanting Russia to offer better and more advanced radar and avionics, I believe the PLAAF would prefer they offered none.

No matter the actual number of Su35 sold, the different radar and avionics (I am assuming the Russians are not going to allow the Chinese to have the full source codes so they would integrate what they want to those Su35s) will create huge headaches for the PLAAF in terms of being able to seamlessly integrate the Russian kit with their own, as well as logistical problems in terms of spare parts and weapons. The Russian radar and avionics would also greatly complicate training.

It just makes no sense for the PLAAF to pay more than what their domestic supplies are charging for, for at best a marginally more capable product, that will soon be totally outclassed by the J20, while creating all those operational, logistical and training headaches for itself.

If Russia offered a stripped down Su35 with no radar or avionics and just the airframe and engines, I think the PLAAF might take the deal so long as the price is reasonable.

They could just install their own radar and avionics so the Su35 would be fully comparable with Chinese weapons, other Chinese military assets like AWACS, warships etc and not create too much of a logistical burden, especially if part of the deal is large scale 177S engine imports to be used to upgrade other aircraft from the J20 to potential up-engined versions of the J15, J16, J11 and even J10B.

But again, a big part of that assumption is the WS15 won't be available until 2018-20 and only in limited numbers even then.

However, given the news about the majorly updated WS10 emerging from Zhuhai, even the 117S engines might not hold much attraction for China.

So the more you look at it, the less sense it would make for China to go for the Su35.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
But first I think the record should be set straight here with regards to Russia only offering 'junk' to China before, that's mostly Indian wishful thinking, the Su27SK and Su30MKK were about as good as what Russia had available at the time.

Well, not entirely true . For reasons unknown, China refused Su-30 version with canards and thrust-vectoring engines. Also, radar was not upgraded . China didn't want Bars or Pero PESA, yet as far as I know it didn't upgrade Su-30 MKK with its own better radar. Therefore, IMHO, Indian Su-30MKI is more advanced then Chinese Su-30MKK or even MK2 .


If Russia offered a stripped down Su35 with no radar or avionics and just the airframe and engines, I think the PLAAF might take the deal so long as the price is reasonable.

China is mostly interested in engines, that is true. As for avionics, I don't know would China want Irbis-E radar, but one other thing that could be potentially interesting is OLS-35 optoelectronic system.
 

SteelBird

Colonel
Well, not entirely true . For reasons unknown, China refused Su-30 version with canards and thrust-vectoring engines. Also, radar was not upgraded . China didn't want Bars or Pero PESA, yet as far as I know it didn't upgrade Su-30 MKK with its own better radar. Therefore, IMHO, Indian Su-30MKI is more advanced then Chinese Su-30MKK or even MK2 .

I read about this some years ago that China only want mature products from Russia, and they must already be in Russian arsenal. This implies that India's MKI was immature and too risky.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I read about this some years ago that China only want mature products from Russia, and they must already be in Russian arsenal. This implies that India's MKI was immature and too risky.
Which makes sense, given how long it took to deliver the MKI.

As for avionics, I don't know would China want Irbis-E radar, but one other thing that could be potentially interesting is OLS-35 optoelectronic system.
Probably to study.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
I read about this some years ago that China only want mature products from Russia, and they must already be in Russian arsenal. This implies that India's MKI was immature and too risky.

Could be, but at the time of purchase Russia didn't have either Su-30MKI or Su-30MKK in its arsenal (or something similar). Same goes for Zhuk-MS and Zhuk-MSE radar .
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Well, not entirely true . For reasons unknown, China refused Su-30 version with canards and thrust-vectoring engines. Also, radar was not upgraded . China didn't want Bars or Pero PESA, yet as far as I know it didn't upgrade Su-30 MKK with its own better radar. Therefore, IMHO, Indian Su-30MKI is more advanced then Chinese Su-30MKK or even MK2 .

I think I already addressed this in my last post, but just in case I wasn't clear.

The MKI is more advanced that the MKK and MK2. But that was because of the choices the PLAAF made rather than Russia playing favourites.

The MKK represented the best readily available Flanker the Russians had available at the time. The MKI and MK2 were in effect paper airplanes that the Russians promised they could develop if given the required amount of money and time.

I think that experience would serve as another disincentive for the PLAAF to go for the Su35 as they would not want to be 'locked in' like that again in the future.

The main reason the VVS didn't operate the MKK at the time was because Russia was still reeling from the collapse of the USSR at the time and was struggling to find the funds to afford fuel, spares and even wages to allow its pilots to fly even a fraction of their normal annual hours never mind buy new airplanes.

So the MKK was actually better than what the Russians themselves had. And eventually, when the VVS recovered enough to buy new aircraft, they opted to go with a version based off of the MKK/MK2.

As for why the PLAAF haven't as yet upgraded the radar of their MKKs, well I think that's down to the huge quantities of PGMs they purchased with those aircraft.

I'm sure the PLAAF has made changes and improvements to the rest of the avionics suit where possible to allow the MKKs to better function within the Chinese air defence network and to better work with other Chinese assets. But without Russian source codes for the weapons, and without wanting to diverge the source code of their own radars, there is simply no way the PLAAF could upgrade the radars on their MKKs without writing off all their Russian munitions inventory.

I think at this stage, there is little value in upgrading the radars given how much(or little) airframe time is left. Which is why the J16 is being developed.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
In Soviet times, monkey models were usually aircraft with inferior avionics (good example would be MiG-23MS ) sold to "unreliable" Third World client states. Soviets were afraid that their latest and most advanced radars, ECCM equipment and some other things would fall into hands of Western opponents if some of those countries suddenly changes regime and switch sides . In those times, most of the avionics logic was "hard-wired" so you could actually learn a lot by getting your hands on one example .

In modern times, most of the avionics uses some kind of software for functioning . Also, system is modular, you could plug and play various equipment from different manufacturers (example Indian Su-30 MKI ) . Therefore, what China did get on their Su-30MKK and MK2 was based on their needs and willingness to pay, and same goes for other Su-30 buyers.

It depends on how comfortable Russia is when it comes to handing over technology to China.

Actually, I believe the biggest obstacle to a deal is still the avionics and radar, but with a twist.

But first I think the record should be set straight here with regards to Russia only offering 'junk' to China before, that's mostly Indian wishful thinking, the Su27SK and Su30MKK were about as good as what Russia had available at the time.

The big difference between India and China was that China preferred to buy off-the-shelf and consequently got their kit years or even over a decade before the Indians for a fraction of the price.

Let's not bring India into the discussion, shall we? The Indian contracts with Sukhoi and the Chinese contracts with Sukhoi are apples and oranges. Indian relations with Russia when it comes to military cooperation is far more advanced than it is the case with China. Technically, what China buys from Russia can be called "junk" by Indian standards.
 
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