Chinese Internal Politics

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
But the degree of citizens participation then has 0 correlation to economic success. Military dictatorships are disastrous yet have degrees of citizen participation higher than monarchies, but lower than democracy. But both those are supposedly better performing.

And even in military dictatorship, what about that of KMT Generalissimo Chiang in Taiwan and Imperial Japanese Takagi Masao, er I mean, 100% Korean definitely not traitor, Park Chung Hee, in South Korea? Egypt also never had democracy for long, they had one military strongman after another from Nasser to Sadat to Mubarak to Al-Sisi, all military officers. Yet why can't they match similar military dictators in South Korea despite South Korea being not just a military dictatorship but an unstable one with dictators being overthrown by each other every decade or so?

I think that the system a country settles on naturally will be the one suited for their economics. Since you can't switch government forms too often, it is basically a matter of luck that your government is suited for a particular economic era or not. Monarchy isn't doing too well today but neither would democracy or a one party state have been in the feudal era. I mean, Revolutionary France was basically a 1 party ideological state, yet they quickly went back to monarchy under Napoleon because the Reign of Terror unleashed by Robespierre completely destabilized the country. It was too early in history for that. Yet nobody thinks that bringing back Napoleon would be great for France today.
In South Korea military dictatorship was unusual because the dictators didn't rule for life but got replaced regularly including by assassination. They also had special access to the largest market in the world in the US and received direct transfes from Japan. But on average, military dictatorships are less successful than other systems in similar countries. Egypt fought a couple of wars, not always successfully, and didn't have the same access to the US. In a military dictatorship where the ruler is in charge because of his military power and has to suppress dissent I think there's less progress. Nasser was not just a military officer but also a revolutionary leader and he did ok overall. I'd see the KMT rule on Taiwan as a single party system. The party has deeper roots than just Chiang.

I don't think there's a good correlation between citizen participation and success. In developing countries, citizen participation is generally not good because it leads to corruption.

France was still in a revolutionary government and it didn't have a good selection process for leaders. I don't think you can label the political clubs of the time as parties and they certainly didn't have just a single party. A strong ruling party has a system of inner party democracy or promotion. France was also at war at the time and Napoleon gave them victory and peace inside their own country while promoting the values of the revolution.

You can't make absolute statements in politics of course because there's always counterexamples. But don't you agree that the imposition of western style democracy has hindered the development of many countries? And monarchies are mostly doing well, comparatively?

Yes, every country will settle on its own system but there are some trends to be found
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
In South Korea military dictatorship was unusual because the dictators didn't rule for life but got replaced regularly including by assassination. They also had special access to the largest market in the world in the US and received direct transfes from Japan. But on average, military dictatorships are less successful than other systems in similar countries. Egypt fought a couple of wars, not always successfully, and didn't have the same access to the US. In a military dictatorship where the ruler is in charge because of his military power and has to suppress dissent I think there's less progress. Nasser was not just a military officer but also a revolutionary leader and he did ok overall. I'd see the KMT rule on Taiwan as a single party system. The party has deeper roots than just Chiang.

I don't think there's a good correlation between citizen participation and success. In developing countries, citizen participation is generally not good because it leads to corruption.

France was still in a revolutionary government and it didn't have a good selection process for leaders. I don't think you can label the political clubs of the time as parties and they certainly didn't have just a single party. A strong ruling party has a system of inner party democracy or promotion. France was also at war at the time and Napoleon gave them victory and peace inside their own country while promoting the values of the revolution.

You can't make absolute statements in politics of course because there's always counterexamples. But don't you agree that the imposition of western style democracy has hindered the development of many countries? And monarchies are mostly doing well, comparatively?

Yes, every country will settle on its own system but there are some trends to be found
I don't agree that western democracy is bad for every country. It might not be for countries whose demographics and economics are unlikely to yield a stable democracy i.e. India and Pakistan. Both are highly diverse in religion, ethnicity and linguistics, both have massive economic inequality. Democracy in these countries causes corruption, political gridlock, inability to eliminate social problems, and society devolves into a brutal Darwinistic struggle for survival. But western democracy works fine for homogenous and if not rich, at least equal countries. For instance it worked for most of homogenous Eastern Europe like Poland, Baltics, etc. It failed miserably in Ukraine and Russia which have high ethnic/linguistic diversity and economic inequality.

I don't think monarchies particularly well for most countries. A monarchy works best when the population is homogenous and poor. You want the royal family to be able to represent the majority (otherwise they're seen as foreign ursupers like Qing was) and the biggest problem that monarchy solves is the problem of too few literates and thus you need to concentrate governing resources on 1 person. If those problems are solved, there's no point to keeping a monarchy. No monarchy that doesn't have oil ever worked in the post WW2 era. Monarchy Swaziland is far poorer than democratic South Africa. Morocco isn't particularly rich and they've been a core western ally for almost a century. Even the example you gave of Jordan, it is poorer than war torn Iraq.

For China in particular, western democracy is unlikely to work well due to ethnolinguistic diversity, but also because China has complex problems to solve. China's governance problems are too difficult for 1 man, so monarchy is out. They are too difficult to understand for those without experience in solving previous Chinese governance problems, so voting a random person in doesn't work either. But not just any experience. The solution must bring the greatest benefit to the public rather than special interests. So not just any 1 party would work, the CPC is the one that has both the ideology and track record to deliver these requirements.
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
But the degree of citizens participation then has 0 correlation to economic success. Military dictatorships are disastrous yet have degrees of citizen participation higher than monarchies, but lower than democracy. But both those are supposedly better performing.

And even in military dictatorship, what about that of KMT Generalissimo Chiang in Taiwan and Imperial Japanese Takagi Masao, er I mean, 100% Korean definitely not traitor, Park Chung Hee, in South Korea? Egypt also never had democracy for long, they had one military strongman after another from Nasser to Sadat to Mubarak to Al-Sisi, all military officers. Yet why can't they match similar military dictators in South Korea despite South Korea being not just a military dictatorship but an unstable one with dictators being overthrown by each other every decade or so?

I think that the system a country settles on naturally will be the one suited for their economics. Since you can't switch government forms too often, it is basically a matter of luck that your government is suited for a particular economic era or not. Monarchy isn't doing too well today but neither would democracy or a one party state have been in the feudal era. I mean, Revolutionary France was basically a 1 party ideological state, yet they quickly went back to monarchy under Napoleon because the Reign of Terror unleashed by Robespierre completely destabilized the country. It was too early in history for that. Yet nobody thinks that bringing back Napoleon would be great for France today.
It is all about the level of democracy in a country which determines its effectiveness.

Yes, the Imperial and fascist governments of Europe were unspeakably horrible, they committed crimes against humanity on an industrial scale. But in terms of democratic participation, they were better than Qing or the Romanovs by miles.

In an fascist European empire from the 1800s, a peasant can rise up to become middle class, he can influence policies by working with the major corporatist organisations, he can get his children an education/skilled labor while still being poor etc. All things which could not happen in the other systems of the time, hence why Europe pulled ahead, because their governments can more accurately represent their people.

Just calling yourself a democracy like certain highly corrupt countries do in the present day does not make you a democracy, anymore than Hitler calling himself national socialist makes him a socialist, or parties being called Liberal democratic parties are necessarily Liberal (just ask Abe and Zhirnovsky).

Rather democracy is how well you can bring the wishes of the population to the forefront, and whereas in the past centuries, Europe stood in the vanguard, today, China stands there.

In China, the people can demand restructuring of the whole industrial apparatus and economy to serve their interests, they can dictate terms to international corporations and to their elites instead of vice versa, this is a level of democratic participation not seen in any of the old European countries or the likes of India. Therefore, the efficiency of China becomes higher than them, having adopted a more representative and fair system.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't agree that western democracy is bad for every country. It might not be for countries whose demographics and economics are unlikely to yield a stable democracy i.e. India and Pakistan. Both are highly diverse in religion, ethnicity and linguistics, both have massive economic inequality. Democracy in these countries causes corruption, political gridlock, inability to eliminate social problems, and society devolves into a brutal Darwinistic struggle for survival. But western democracy works fine for homogenous and if not rich, at least equal countries. For instance it worked for most of homogenous Eastern Europe like Poland, Baltics, etc. It failed miserably in Ukraine and Russia which have high ethnic/linguistic diversity and economic inequality.

I don't think monarchies particularly well for most countries. A monarchy works best when the population is homogenous and poor. You want the royal family to be able to represent the majority (otherwise they're seen as foreign ursupers like Qing was) and the biggest problem that monarchy solves is the problem of too few literates and thus you need to concentrate governing resources on 1 person. If those problems are solved, there's no point to keeping a monarchy. No monarchy that doesn't have oil ever worked in the post WW2 era. Monarchy Swaziland is far poorer than democratic South Africa. Morocco isn't particularly rich and they've been a core western ally for almost a century. Even the example you gave of Jordan, it is poorer than war torn Iraq.

For China in particular, western democracy is unlikely to work well due to ethnolinguistic diversity, but also because China has complex problems to solve. China's governance problems are too difficult for 1 man, so monarchy is out. They are too difficult to understand for those without experience in solving previous Chinese governance problems, so voting a random person in doesn't work either. But not just any experience. The solution must bring the greatest benefit to the public rather than special interests. So not just any 1 party would work, the CPC is the one that has both the ideology and track record to deliver these requirements.
Western democracy "worked" in western Europe because these countries were very rich and had a huge advantage in terms of development. Under this system, they've lost their advantage. Is that success? It's certainly a stable and fairly peaceful system as long as your country is rich. But it becomes very unstable when you start to decline. Post Soviet Eastern Europe is only an example of the success of massive subsidies. Any government would have succeeded with this level of transfers and market access.

Monarchies work well as long as the king is competent but the major problem is succession. A monarch representing the interests of an ethnic minority against the majority like the Qing is of course a recipe for disaster and an example of an incompetent monarch. But in the Arab world, Arab monarchs are very successful. Morocco and Jordan are comparatively stable politically and developing acceptably well economically. Countries like Egypt and Iraq that removed their monarchs have come to regret it. The king of Thailand is also a powerful force for stability. Violent changes of government are usually terrible for development. Iraq has a comparatively high GDP because of oil, but it's certainly not nearly as developed as Jordan. You also can't really compare South Africa with Swaziland because South Africa just had much better educated white colonisers who are obviously more productive and have more human capital than the less developed natives. That has nothing to do with democracy.

I think an emperor could work really well for China coupled with a selection of bureaucrats through the imperial examination of the public service officials. The communist party is not all that different. The key problem with monarchy is the risk of a bad emperor so a single party system is better. I don't actually believe that the KMT would have done a bad job, they just lacked the charismatic leaders to unite the people behind them.

All things which could not happen in the other systems of the time, hence why Europe pulled ahead, because their governments can more accurately represent their people.

In China, the people can demand restructuring of the whole industrial apparatus and economy to serve their interests, they can dictate terms to international corporations and to their elites instead of vice versa
In both cases the people don't actually have the power, but the government worked to serve the people rather than themselves as corrupt officials would do. A government can serve the people without being of the people. The Meiji emperor and the German Kaiser Wilhelm the first were very successful and served their people well, the problem was just the succession. The British oligarchy of the old nobility who dominated parliament through the house of lords during the industrial revolution also managed very well and then only allowed other rich people to vote for the house of commons. Political participation was mostly widened to keep angry people quiet and direct their anger towards the ballot box rather than the street. This shouldn't be necessary in a country like China which isn't an oligarchy and where the government works for the interest of the majority anyway rather than working for the nobility and industrialists
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
I agree, common people got the vote when they started to have a reasonable level of education. The fact that taxes on labour became a major source of income also mattered. Taxpayers want their money to be used well. But the key question is not why popular votes were introduced, but whether they are better or worse than a single party system or monarchy etc

My argument is that the western world pulled ahead of the other traditional civilisations of the world in west and east Asia in the 18th and 19th century. At that time, they didn't have anything we would recognise as modern western style democracy today. In the industrial revolution era voting rights were extremely restricted or votes were meaningless. In the era of universal suffrage after WW2, many countries have managed to catch up to and sometimes overtake traditional western great powers despite the economic miracle in Europe after the war and the West having huge technological advantages.

So if we look at it as a social experiment, which system of government allows a society to advance faster than others? Has any country moved through the middle income range as a western style democracy? The four Asian tiger states are perfect examples of successful models avoiding meaningful elections. I don't think governance has improved in Korea and Taiwan since they introduced American style democracy.

I don't think the general population ever had the capacity to make decisions on how to rule a country. This system of universal suffrage is a big and expensive burden on a society. It's only very rich countries that can afford such a political system and western countries were reasonably successful on it in the last century because they were so far ahead of everyone else. But their expensive system cost them their lead. Now that they're in competition with China, their systems are becoming unaffordably expensive. Western countries will either reduce the importance of general votes or they will start falling behind. Most of Europe is already in the process of falling behind, people just haven't realised it yet

Today, I would rate military dictatorships as generally disastrous, western style democracies as tolerably successful, monarchies as more successful but only if the king happens to be competent and single party systems as the most successful as long as they have a good system for selection of new leaders. Compare democratic India vs China, democratic Philippines vs Thai monarchy, the failed democracy in Egypt and Tunisia with the stability and success of Jordan and Saudi Arabia. The only world region that's an exception is Eastern Europe and turkey, because these countries have been heavily subsidised by western Europe. In the European golden age, governments were either monarchies or oligarchies
The Western cultural package being extremely successful is a historical fact. But that does not mean you can just import the Western cultural package and make it work for every other civilization. The blind spot of liberals all over the world is that they assume that, because a pattern of cultural and political behavior worked for the West, it must therefore work for everyone else, too. Because "we are all the same."

There is no historical evidence of this. Or rather, all the historical examples of liberalism working else where were actively manufactured by the US. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Western Europe - all of these places were built up as fortresses against Communism by the US. They were given favorable trade treatment, tons of investment, technology transfers, and generally put in an advantageous position by the US after World War 2. They were not only allowed to thrive, but actively supported to do so by the US in order to push for ideological victory over the USSR. Of course, only up to a certain degree as we saw with Japan when they got too close to the sun.

All the while, outside of these fortresses of US power, failed democracies spread like wild fire. Most of the failed states of the world were or are democracies. Democracy didn't help South America, Africa, or Southeast Asia become power houses. Liberals blame this on "corruption" but have never indicated how democracy solves for "corruption" when the average voter can be easily manipulated by the media and the elites who control it. More importantly, they completely neglect how US support was critical in transforming its Asian and European vassals into first world countries; while the third world democracies failed without it.

My own take on this is similar to yours in that the key to Western success wasn't democracy. But I acknowledge the fact that the Western cultural package eventually leads down the path of democracy because if you examine the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and the Scientific Revolution, they were driven ultimately by individualism and rationalism. The spirit of rebellion against historical traditions, religious orthodoxy, and authoritarian hierarchies was very much present in the critical centuries leading up to the Industrial Revolution and the Great Divergence. They were always going to end up with democracy.

But does that mean democracy is what made the West successful? Of course not. This is an associative relationship, not a causative relationship. The West was successful because of its cultural pattern, democracy was a logical, perhaps even inevitable, side-effect, but not the reason for its success. The lesson to the rest of the world then is that democracy is neither necessary nor sufficient for success. We know that because China and Singapore became successful without democracy. And we know it is not sufficient because of all the failed democracies.

So in the end, the actual question is not "whether to adopt democracy" but rather "whether the Western cultural pattern is an universal pattern that would work for anyone." My answer, so far, having looked at so many countries try and fail to imitate Western culture, is "no."
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
The Western cultural package being extremely successful is a historical fact. But that does not mean you can just import the Western cultural package and make it work for every other civilization. The blind spot of liberals all over the world is that they assume that, because a pattern of cultural and political behavior worked for the West, it must therefore work for everyone else, too. Because "we are all the same."

There is no historical evidence of this. Or rather, all the historical examples of liberalism working else where were actively manufactured by the US. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Western Europe - all of these places were built up as fortresses against Communism by the US. They were given favorable trade treatment, tons of investment, technology transfers, and generally put in an advantageous position by the US after World War 2. They were not only allowed to thrive, but actively supported to do so by the US in order to push for ideological victory over the USSR. Of course, only up to a certain degree as we saw with Japan when they got too close to the sun.

All the while, outside of these fortresses of US power, failed democracies spread like wild fire. Most of the failed states of the world were or are democracies. Democracy didn't help South America, Africa, or Southeast Asia become power houses. Liberals blame this on "corruption" but have never indicated how democracy solves for "corruption" when the average voter can be easily manipulated by the media and the elites who control it. More importantly, they completely neglect how US support was critical in transforming its Asian and European vassals into first world countries; while the third world democracies failed without it.

My own take on this is similar to yours in that the key to Western success wasn't democracy. But I acknowledge the fact that the Western cultural package eventually leads down the path of democracy because if you examine the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and the Scientific Revolution, they were driven ultimately by individualism and rationalism. The spirit of rebellion against historical traditions, religious orthodoxy, and authoritarian hierarchies was very much present in the critical centuries leading up to the Industrial Revolution and the Great Divergence. They were always going to end up with democracy.

But does that mean democracy is what made the West successful? Of course not. This is an associative relationship, not a causative relationship. The West was successful because of its cultural pattern, democracy was a logical, perhaps even inevitable, side-effect, but not the reason for its success. The lesson to the rest of the world then is that democracy is neither necessary nor sufficient for success. We know that because China and Singapore became successful without democracy. And we know it is not sufficient because of all the failed democracies.

So in the end, the actual question is not "whether to adopt democracy" but rather "whether the Western cultural pattern is an universal pattern that would work for anyone." My answer, so far, having looked at so many countries try and fail to imitate Western culture, is "no."
can you even characterize countries where just a small group of elites control most major facets as especially "democratic"?

Granted, such systems are miles more democratic than whatever the fuck was Manchu Imperial system, hence why Europe which was led by various forms of corporatism won the clash of civilizations against Imperial China.

But in the context of modern societies, is this approach of having a self selecting "national interest group champions" (i.e. oligarchs) really able to keep up with societies that use central planning and have governments which are responsible to popular command rather than the reverse?

It is not about "good" or "evil" but just about efficiency in executing policies. Japan or Singapore are an example of a state whose domestic policy is de facto run along the format of democratic centralism (and have also ended up evolving into single party systems), despite them following a conservative rather than socialist agenda, especially the former is involved in tons of unpleasant behavior, but that doesn't make them less democratic and also not less efficient, even if they're the "enemy".

In contrast, almost every western style elite ruled society has stagnated or failed in the modern era. The old ones cling to their past stolen wealth to stay stagnant, while the new ones are never even able to grow in the first place.

My hypothesis is that elite rule is only good when their competitors follow worse systems such as hereditary dictatorships.
 
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