Chinese infantry fighting vehicles

t2contra said:

Then design it to accommodate one. 12.7mm is hardly enough for protection when the enemies nowadays are often heavily armed. Other countries' APCs are built to cater for both calibres, like the Israeli, Turkish, Austria's, etc.

Click to expand...

Some reconnaissance vehicles need a 30mm cannon.
Some do not, and can get by with a HMG. For example, this one to my knowledge is oriented as an artillery recon/FO vehicle.

The ZBL08 family does have a recon vehicle with a 30mm turret.

That doesn't mean every single recon ZBL08 needs one.

Things are not as simple as "bigger gun for everyone = good!"

In this case, you are completely barking up the wrong tree, because what is fresh for us is seeing an in service, proper stabilized and imagery equipped remote weapon mount for a HMG, which for the PLA is a relatively rare.

In the past, that HMG would be manually operated rather than be on a RWS.


See below for ZBL08s with a 30mm turret and reconnaissance equipment.

Does this new gen come with thicker armor against smaller projectiles than the previous gen?

I heard the Russian BMP-2/3 being deployed in Ukraine have pathetically thin armor that doesn't offer much protection for troops sitting inside.

The BMP-2 was basically developed to be a troop carrier which could keep up in speed with tanks. Armor was not a design feature. You can probably say the BMP-T and now the T-15 are the first Russian troop carrier vehicles which put emphasis on protection.
I doubt a wheeled vehicle like this one will have a lot of armor.

by78 said:

Why would/should you need/want a 30mm auto-cannon on a recon vehicle? Because you think it's cool?

Do you understand what kind of recoil mitigation a 30mm auto-cannon would need – in terms of the size of the turret ring – and how the physical dimensions of the turret can be reconciled with the competing demands of fitting the electronic and optical observational equipment necessary to fulfill the primary function of a recon vehicle?

In other words, how is mounting a 30mm auto-cannon on a recon vehicle not be anything other than a waste of space?

Click to expand...

Dude, calm down. The CS/AA5 is damn cool.


40mm RWS IFV to accompany the APC

t2contra said:

hardl

Click to expand...

Bltizo said:

Some reconnaissance vehicles need a 30mm cannon.
Some do not, and can get by with a HMG. For example, this one to my knowledge is oriented as an artillery recon/FO vehicle.

The ZBL08 family does have a recon vehicle with a 30mm turret.

That doesn't mean every single recon ZBL08 needs one.

Things are not as simple as "bigger gun for everyone = good!"

In this case, you are completely barking up the wrong tree, because what is fresh for us is seeing an in service, proper stabilized and imagery equipped remote weapon mount for a HMG, which for the PLA is a relatively rare.

In the past, that HMG would be manually operated rather than be on a RWS.


See below for ZBL08s with a 30mm turret and reconnaissance equipment.

View attachment 87508View attachment 87509View attachment 87510

Click to expand...

t2contra said:

Dude, calm down. The CS/AA5 is damn cool.
View attachment 87513

40mm RWS IFV to accompany the APC

Click to expand...

The point is that to have an unmanned 30-mm autocannon turret and a (telescoping) observational mast in an 8x8 vehicle of this size is an impractical idea. Both the small internal volume and the limited top surface area would make this a Rube Goldberg setup at best.

Let's visualize this and think through the scenarios. When the top portion of the observational mast sticks out of the vehicle (), the turret will have very limited traversal because it could easily bump into the mast. You could make the mast fit flush with the topside of the vehicle by either significantly reducing the height of the mast or mounting the turret significantly higher, both of which are just ugly compromises, not to mention if you need to fire the cannon while your mast is up, you'd be caught with your pants down.

The ideal solution would be to make the mast co-axial with the turret by installing it in the turret basket of the autocannon (as seen in Bltizo's images), but this solution would be utterly idiotic and impractical. The whole point of an unmanned turret is to free up precious internal volume and allow enhanced survivability. If the mast is mounted off-centerline in the turret basket, then the unmanned turret would occupy as much space as a manned one because an off-centerline mast needs substantial internal space for the turret to traverse freely.

Mounting the mast centerline (as in dead bullseye middle of the turret, perhaps even penetrating the basket and be girded to the vehicle floor) is also impractical. This arrangement would require that you mount the autocannon far off-center (much more off-center than even the ) and then fit all the mechanical bits and ammo storage around the cannon and the centerline mast. Good luck with that.

Funny that you brought up the CS/AA5 unmanned autocannon. Do you even realize how and that system is? Where in the do you propose to install an observational mast?

I know the the "CS/AA5 is damn cool", but being cool and being practical are entirely different things. The design and engineering process for specialized military hardware ain't about "cool". Life isn't the Make A Wish Foundation, and what is "cool" isn't the same as what is desirable, which brings me to the final point: why would you mount an unmanned 30-mm autocannon on a recon vehicle? You do understand the difference between a recon vehicle and an IFV and how they each must be optimized to serve their respective and very different roles, right?

I'm not going to mince my words here, but what you're proposing is astonishingly stupid and an utter waste of money, time, and resources, all for an end result of incredibly dubious value.

by78 said:

The point is that to have an unmanned 30-mm autocannon turret and a (telescoping) observational mast in an 8x8 vehicle of this size is an impractical idea. Both the small internal volume and the limited top surface area would make this a Rube Goldberg setup at best.

Let's visualize this and think through the scenarios. When the top portion of the observational mast sticks out of the vehicle (

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

), the turret will have very limited traversal because it could easily bump into the mast. You could make the mast fit flush with the topside of the vehicle by either significantly reducing the height of the mast or mounting the turret significantly higher, both of which are just ugly compromises, not to mention if you need to fire the cannon while your mast is up, you'd be caught with your pants down.

The ideal solution would be to make the mast co-axial with the turret by installing it in the turret basket of the autocannon (as seen in Bltizo's images), but this solution would be utterly idiotic and impractical. The whole point of an unmanned turret is to free up precious internal volume and allow enhanced survivability. If the mast is mounted off-centerline in the turret basket, then the unmanned turret would occupy as much space as a manned one because an off-centerline mast needs substantial internal space for the turret to traverse freely.

Mounting the mast centerline (as in dead bullseye middle of the turret, perhaps even penetrating the basket and be girded to the vehicle floor) is also impractical. This arrangement would require that you mount the autocannon far off-center (much more off-center than even the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

) and then fit all the mechanical bits and ammo storage around the cannon and the centerline mast. Good luck with that.

Funny that you brought up the CS/AA5 unmanned autocannon. Do you even realize how

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

that system is? Where in the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

do you propose to install an observational mast?

I know the the "CS/AA5 is damn cool", but being cool and being practical are entirely different things. The design and engineering process for specialized military hardware ain't about "cool"; this isn't the Make A Wish Foundation, which brings me to the final point: why would you mount an unmanned 30-mm autocannon on a recon vehicle? You do understand the difference between a recon vehicle and an IFV and how they each must be optimized to serve their respective and very different roles, right?

I'm not going to mince my words here, but what you're proposing is astonishingly stupid and a utter waste of money, resources, time and opportunity cost, all for an end result of very dubious value.

Click to expand...

That's your point. My point is a 40mm RWS can exist on its own. There are IFV with manual 30 or 40mm guns after all. 'Cool' as effective in my point of view.

by78 said:

The point is that to have an unmanned 30-mm autocannon turret and a (telescoping) observational mast in an 8x8 vehicle of this size is an impractical idea. Both the small internal volume and the limited top surface area would make this a Rube Goldberg setup at best.

Let's visualize this and think through the scenarios. When the top portion of the observational mast sticks out of the vehicle (

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

), the turret will have very limited traversal because it could easily bump into the mast. You could make the mast fit flush with the topside of the vehicle by either significantly reducing the height of the mast or mounting the turret significantly higher, both of which are just ugly compromises, not to mention if you need to fire the cannon while your mast is up, you'd be caught with your pants down.

The ideal solution would be to make the mast co-axial with the turret by installing it in the turret basket of the autocannon (as seen in Bltizo's images), but this solution would be utterly idiotic and impractical. The whole point of an unmanned turret is to free up precious internal volume and allow enhanced survivability. If the mast is mounted off-centerline in the turret basket, then the unmanned turret would occupy as much space as a manned one because an off-centerline mast needs substantial internal space for the turret to traverse freely.

Mounting the mast centerline (as in dead bullseye middle of the turret, perhaps even penetrating the basket and be girded to the vehicle floor) is also impractical. This arrangement would require that you mount the autocannon far off-center (much more off-center than even the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

) and then fit all the mechanical bits and ammo storage around the cannon and the centerline mast. Good luck with that.

Funny that you brought up the CS/AA5 unmanned autocannon. Do you even realize how

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

that system is? Where in the

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

do you propose to install an observational mast?

I know the the "CS/AA5 is damn cool", but being cool and being practical are entirely different things. The design and engineering process for specialized military hardware ain't about "cool"; this isn't the Make A Wish Foundation, which brings me to the final point: why would you mount an unmanned 30-mm autocannon on a recon vehicle? You do understand the difference between a recon vehicle and an IFV and how they each must be optimized to serve their respective and very different roles, right?

I'm not going to mince my words here, but what you're proposing is astonishingly stupid and an utter waste of money, time, and resources, all for an end result of incredibly dubious value.

Click to expand...

In the future, it is possible that a future IFV with an unmanned 30mm or 40mm turret could also have a recon variant with a telescoping mast -- such a configuration would likely have the mast be located in the rear of the vehicle similar to how some other IFVs currently do it.







I don't think the idea of having an unmanned turret with a 30mm or 40mm cannon with a telescoping recon mast on the same vehicle is a bad idea -- after all, there are current recon vehicles with 30mm manned turrets as well.

BUT -- @t2contra, that doesn't mean every single recon vehicle variant needs a 30mm or 40mm turret.


In the case of this vehicle, they've chosen to put a telescoping mast with a 12.7mm HMG on a RWS.
That's perfectly reasonable as a recon vehicle.

"I wish it was 30mm" is unreasonable to expect at this stage considering the PLA currently does not have a 30mm unmanned turret in service yet (even though such turrets are produced by industry and offered for export).
Once the PLA has an unmanned turret with a 30mm cannon or above, then you can expect them to reasonably have a recon variant of it with a telescoping mast.

But at this stage, no.


And seeing a 12.7mm HMG on a proper RWS for an in-service PLA vehicle is already a pretty significant and new development, given how rare proper RWS are for the PLA. We shouldn't get too entitled lol.

t2contra said:

That's your point. My point is a 40mm RWS can exist on its own. There are IFV with manual 30 or 40mm guns after all. 'Cool' as effective in my point of view.

Click to expand...

If you are not going to engage in the conversation in a serious manner, and argue "I want to see it because it's cool" -- that is your right.

But if other people try to provide reasonable explanations and you don't engage in good faith, that does not meet general etiquette and is not too far from being actively non-constructive in the discussion.

Bltizo said:

In the future, it is possible that a future IFV with an unmanned 30mm or 40mm turret could also have a recon variant with a telescoping mast -- such a configuration would likely have the mast be located in the rear of the vehicle similar to how some other IFVs currently do it.

I don't think the idea of having an unmanned turret with a 30mm or 40mm cannon with a telescoping recon mast on the same vehicle is a bad idea -- after all, there are current recon vehicles with 30mm manned turrets as well.

BUT -- @t2contra, that doesn't mean every single recon vehicle variant needs a 30mm or 40mm turret.


In the case of this vehicle, they've chosen to put a telescoping mast with a 12.7mm HMG on a RWS.
That's perfectly reasonable as a recon vehicle.

"I wish it was 30mm" is unreasonable to expect at this stage considering the PLA currently does not have a 30mm unmanned turret in service yet (even though such turrets are produced by industry and offered for export).
Once the PLA has an unmanned turret with a 30mm cannon or above, then you can expect them to reasonably have a recon variant of it with a telescoping mast.

But at this stage, no.


And seeing a 12.7mm HMG on a proper RWS for an in-service PLA vehicle is already a pretty significant and new development, given how rare proper RWS are for the PLA. We shouldn't get too entitled lol.

Click to expand...

Does the CS/AA5 have recon role? If not, can't it be just an IFV? I was not talking about it having recon role as a necessity.

t2contra said:

Does the CS/AA5 have recon role? If not, can't it be just an IFV? I was not talking about it having recon role as a necessity.

Click to expand...

It's not in service even I think.

gongolongo said:

It's not in service even I think.

Click to expand...

I know. My original question was about a bigger calibre than 12.7mm RWS. Nothing about recon.