Chinese Hypersonic Developments (HGVs/HCMs)

escobar

Brigadier
China already told us what happened, it was a test of technology related to a space plane, not a missile test.

In the near future I think they will reveal it and this FOBS talk will look silly.

Personally, I am far more impressed about the imminent era of space planes which will be dominated by China.
CN did not told us about what happened on the 27 july test. Zhao talk about the 16 july Space plane test WE already know. He know nothing about the 27 july FOBS test.
 

VioletsForSpring

New Member
Registered Member
No, a boost glider going hypersonic for that long would break up, no matter what. Their is an operational limit on the range of HGVs because current materials engineering cannot deal with the immense forces put on the glider.
there*
I think there's confusion here.

Even if the atmospheric part of the hypersonic flight time is limited, it does not mean the range is limited because HGVs can also be launched above the atmosphere to solve that problem. That's what China tested, an "Orbital Bombardment System."

The article posted earlier was claiming that HGVs have to choose stealth and shorter range, or detection and longer range. Their hypothesis is that you can't have both full-stealth and long range with HGVs.

As I stated earlier though, even if this hypothesis is correct, it doesnt nullify the advantages of HGVs for China, although it might for the US. Their requirements are different.

With that said, the case of low altitude unlimited hypersonic flight, I also think it's probably not yet possible. It's an engineering issue though, not physics.
Somewhat agree, although there is no real advantage to FOBS-HGVS in comparison to ICBMS for nuclear capabilities though, 5 ICBMS with 10 MIRVS could overwhelm the US anti ICBM system in Alaska with ease. An FOBS HGV is far less useful when delivering a nuclear strike due to the lengthy time in which it has to travel to reach its target.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't understand the willingness to accept without doubt or concern that Chinese ICBMs can overwhelm US ABM. How does anyone know this without knowing exact numbers and performances of Chinese ICBMs with DF-31A range (at least) and the exact numbers, positions, mobility, and performance of US ABM.

China clearly seems to feel they should still increase nuclear warhead numbers and delivery system capability and numbers. This is of course assuming the 2021 hypersonic flights are weapons or can be weaponised for nuclear delivery.

It could be the case that these developments, silo building, warhead expansion and so on are there for treaty negotiations in an effort to get the US to bring down their own nuclear capabilities in mutual disarmament with the Russians etc. DOUBT.

China has been fine with accepting US nuclear force since fighting the Korean War. For guaranteed MAD, it needs more SSBNs and ICBMs. These are things it can do without developing more exotic, novel forms of nuclear delivery like HGVs (FOBS or ICBM mounted or whatever). It cannot rely on novel, unproven technologies for MAD over building thousands more warheads and putting them on MIRVed modern ICBMs like DF-41, DF-5B, and SLBMs like JL-2 and JL-3. That would required regardless of whether HGV delivery is pursued! Therefore HGV delivery is not and cannot be the sole depended technology for MAD. Therefore testing HGV nuclear delivery cannot be for any mutual disarmament negotiations bargaining.

The purpose of these tests are not for negotiation for mutual disarmament without actually putting into service equal numbers of nuclear warheads, however they fly. If it were, they wouldn't be denying this is a weapon intended for nuclear delivery and they would still need to actually put into service enough to reach near parity before the US would agree. Do we think the US intelligence is that incompetent AND the Chinese know them to be? Come on, let's get real.

This leaves two options, either China just thinks it needs to up its nuclear game to ensure MAD in second strike or global HGV flight is not a weapon at all, at least very unlikely and difficult to be converted into a flexible enough platform to be part of PLARF's nuclear forces.

I think DF-17 HGV (clearly weapon) shows HGVs are weaponised before they are anything else. Does China have Avangard like ICBM mounted HGVs? You bet. Does it have every intention to increase its nuclear forces and capabilities? You bet. Is that just to get the US to reduce their weapons? No effing way. 1 - the US wouldn't. 2 - China hasn't cared in the past when the gap was much greater and the tensions at least as high if not higher (wartime e.g. Korea). 3 - simply because it regards itself as a power that requires a nuclear force that is not such a fraction of US nuclear forces i.e. it can afford to and deserves to have such a security in times of so much tension created by US desire to contain and destroy China.

What is more interesting than FOBS combined with HGVs is a hypersonic craft that can travel within the atmosphere, across the globe and land. Whether it takes off horizontally or it is air launched or vertically boosted, that is something entirely new to humans. Having said that we know China has HGV weapons and certainly for nuclear delivery. We also know from the horse's mouth that it also has developed a hypersonic craft that is capable of landing and has done exactly that on at least one occasion this year, tacitly verified by the US. Who is talking about what, when. That is unclear for now since there are inaccuracies in media reporting and intentional obfuscation for political reason from China and the US (in different ways). Hypersonic weapons are done... DF-17 boosted HGV was shown back in 2019. That is old hat already. China is flying combined cycle hypersonic craft that can land. This isn't even secretive or sensitive enough to hide for China. Imagine what is hidden.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
there*

Somewhat agree, although there is no real advantage to FOBS-HGVS in comparison to ICBMS for nuclear capabilities though, 5 ICBMS with 10 MIRVS could overwhelm the US anti ICBM system in Alaska with ease. An FOBS HGV is far less useful when delivering a nuclear strike due to the lengthy time in which it has to travel to reach its target.

I don't think we should still consider the latest flight as a test of a FOBS based HGV weapon since this isn't confirmed.

However, it is still incorrect to say FOBS based HGV offer no advantage over more conventional MIRV from ICBMs or HGV from ICBMs. FOBS does offer pretty much unlimited range which existing ICBM do not. FOBS also offer unknown approach direction when it is fitted with an HGV although this is a total danger in peacetime and unknown target info is a useless thing for first strike. It complicates defence planning and while the "other side" would view any LEO launch with high suspicion and prepare to intercept, this all requires new defence planning and what if it is just a satellite (in case of first strike which is something I doubt China would ever consider let alone do). If it is secondary strike, all launches would be considered nuclear. Leaving HGV carrying nuke in orbit is too stupid to be something China would do. It's safer and more effective to have first and secondary strike capabilities preserved better or in greater effectiveness with simply more ICBMs and warheads, something far cheaper to do that build a fraction of those numbers but in FOBS form.

More reason to suspect this isn't a FOBS at all like some are suspecting but it should be pointed out that FOBS does have its own advantages however useless they are for China. HGV mounted on ICBMs is probably a good way to defeat BMD if MIRVs are potentially incapable of doing so.

One thing we should note is that BMD is at least as easy for China as it is for the US. It would also be much easier, cheaper, and faster to build more BMD in China than it would for the US. Of course this would be terminal and mid course interception rather than having the option of boost phase which the US sort of have against nuclear forces like North Korea. BMD and early warning play a role here.

China believes it needs to expand nuclear forces and capabilities to gain some respect and this is why they are doing it. The flight tests are not all nuclear delivery related. In fact we know at least one program is not. There are several Chinese SSTO/spaceplane/hypersonic reusable craft programs. The test flight that is claimed to have flown around the earth could easily have been non-military.
 

escobar

Brigadier
The only aspect of this that could be somewhat new is if they demonstrated advanced enough materials science to do a prolonged endoatmospheric glide at hypersonic speeds.
My guess is they put an IC-ranged glide vehicle into orbit in order to test it at close to operational speeds (not because they intend to use it as FOBS) and it performed an abbreviated endoatmo flight due to range limitations, but gave indications it could go much longer
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
there*

Somewhat agree, although there is no real advantage to FOBS-HGVS in comparison to ICBMS for nuclear capabilities though, 5 ICBMS with 10 MIRVS could overwhelm the US anti ICBM system in Alaska with ease. An FOBS HGV is far less useful when delivering a nuclear strike due to the lengthy time in which it has to travel to reach its target.

First off, China isn’t making a choice of ICBMs or FOBS+HGVS (FHGVS for short), it is developing and keeping both.

Secondly, FHGVS gives China the capacity to almost guarantee that the weapon reaches its intended target when you need it to.

Less important in a civilisation ending all out strike, but of the utmost importance during a tactical limited strike or as an opening strike to take out key enemy installations. Because sure, you can shoot more missiles than the enemy can intercept, but you have zero control over which missiles the enemy do manage to intercept, so the only want to make sure those key locations that absolutely must be hit are hit is to send multiple warheads at them, which massively changes the balance of costs and even then you are relying on luck that they get taken out.

This is why a sure thing is almost always preferable and more valuable than just a good chance.
 
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