Chinese Hypersonic Developments (HGVs/HCMs)

by78

General
(Continued from above...)

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jnd85

New Member
Registered Member
Thoughts on the range and payload of YJ-21. One thing that always intrigued me is how the YJ-21 with a dimension similar to DF-15 can achieve a much greater range despite being a slightly smaller rocket.. Let's compare:

YJ-21DF-15A
Range: 1500 km
Dim: 8.7m x 0.83m
Payload:?
Range: 900km
Dim: 9.1m x 1m
Payload: 600kg

One way to get a greater range is to use a Sanger ballistics (You also lose energy by doing that), but I wonder if the same can be achieved by having a smaller payload. As the YJ-21 doesn't need a 600 warhead to inflict a mission kill on a carrier.

After some googling I found this graph: Link:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

View attachment 135840

Assuming this the info in this graph is scalable for our range.
I'm also using Region A as I don't fully understand what each region represent, people better at rocket may want to correct me.
1500km/900km = 1.67
So I geed to figure out how much the 600kg warhead need to reduced to achieve a 1.67x increase in range.
In graph: 600kg, 250km ish range.
So we need the warhead mass for 250x1.67= 417 km range.
View attachment 135841

So got a warhead mass of 200kg, which is a warhead mass slightly smaller than the Harpoon (221km).

However, I think with a terminal speed of Mach10, 200kg is enough to achieve a mission kill on a Carrier, but def not sink it.

What do you guys think? Feel free to improve upon my finding.
Impressive!
 

bustead

Junior Member
Registered Member
Thoughts on the range and payload of YJ-21. One thing that always intrigued me is how the YJ-21 with a dimension similar to DF-15 can achieve a much greater range despite being a slightly smaller rocket.. Let's compare:

YJ-21DF-15A
Range: 1500 km
Dim: 8.7m x 0.83m
Payload:?
Range: 900km
Dim: 9.1m x 1m
Payload: 600kg

One way to get a greater range is to use a Sanger ballistics (You also lose energy by doing that), but I wonder if the same can be achieved by having a smaller payload. As the YJ-21 doesn't need a 600 warhead to inflict a mission kill on a carrier.

After some googling I found this graph: Link:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

View attachment 135840

Assuming this the info in this graph is scalable for our range.
I'm also using Region A as I don't fully understand what each region represent, people better at rocket may want to correct me.
1500km/900km = 1.67
So I geed to figure out how much the 600kg warhead need to reduced to achieve a 1.67x increase in range.
In graph: 600kg, 250km ish range.
So we need the warhead mass for 250x1.67= 417 km range.
View attachment 135841

So got a warhead mass of 200kg, which is a warhead mass slightly smaller than the Harpoon (221km).

However, I think with a terminal speed of Mach10, 200kg is enough to achieve a mission kill on a Carrier, but def not sink it.

What do you guys think? Feel free to improve upon my finding.
Great work!
I will build on your findings. Assuming the warhead is an inert slug made of Tungsten, and that it is travelling at Mach 10. The kinetic energy this warhead will carry is around 1/2 x 200 x 33300², which is around 1 GJ.

Assuming an impact time of 1 millisecond, this warhead can generate about 660 million newtons of force.

This can easily generate enough force to buckle even the strongest steel. For example, HY-100 steel only has a yield strength of 930MPa, and a cone shaped projectile can easily exceed that twice over.

In short, an impact from an inert warhead can penetrate the flight deck completely. Depending on where the missile hits, the arresting gear and catapults can be disabled. More importantly, since the warhead is heated up during reentry, the glowing hot warhead may hit the hanger and set fire to any planes or fuel dumps in the area. IMO, we are looking at flight deck damage and fires at the minimum. Hard to say if it is enough to sink the carrier, but certainly enough to put it out of action for a while.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Great work!
I will build on your findings. Assuming the warhead is an inert slug made of Tungsten, and that it is travelling at Mach 10. The kinetic energy this warhead will carry is around 1/2 x 200 x 33300², which is around 1 GJ.

Assuming an impact time of 1 millisecond, this warhead can generate about 660 million newtons of force.

This can easily generate enough force to buckle even the strongest steel. For example, HY-100 steel only has a yield strength of 930MPa, and a cone shaped projectile can easily exceed that twice over.

In short, an impact from an inert warhead can penetrate the flight deck completely. Depending on where the missile hits, the arresting gear and catapults can be disabled. More importantly, since the warhead is heated up during reentry, the glowing hot warhead may hit the hanger and set fire to any planes or fuel dumps in the area. IMO, we are looking at flight deck damage and fires at the minimum. Hard to say if it is enough to sink the carrier, but certainly enough to put it out of action for a while.
Terminal velocity probably won’t be Mach 10.
 

ohan_qwe

Junior Member
To get through air defences the missile probably would be launched in salvos. I would be surprised if a carrier is hit by one missile and not atleast 3.
 

by78

General
GDF-600 hypersonic glider, mach 7 maximum speed, capable of penetrating enemy air defenses and delivering a variety of destructive payloads that include supersonic missiles, subsonic missiles, cruise missiles, bombs, and even drones.

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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Surely this is not how they are deployed. This GARA company seems to be a private one? The state owned/ PLA backed HGV is the one that released a payload as referenced in the FT article, unlikely to be some random private company that uses such a model. I understand it's only trying to show carrying capability but that is certainly not a good representation of how a carrier HGV deploys submunition. The centre of gravity would be changed too suddenly for flight controls to compensate, particularly at those speeds.

I suspect GARA here is taking advantage of what the PLA/ state owned enterprise was able to perform.

They won't let the actual thing be shown. If it is indeed GARA's HGV that was tested deploying a submunition, this probably isn't an accurate representation of the HGV they used and certainly isn't how it is loaded. That much would be obvious.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Surely this is not how they are deployed. This GARA company seems to be a private one? The state owned/ PLA backed HGV is the one that released a payload as referenced in the FT article, unlikely to be some random private company that uses such a model. I understand it's only trying to show carrying capability but that is certainly not a good representation of how a carrier HGV deploys submunition. The centre of gravity would be changed too suddenly for flight controls to compensate, particularly at those speeds.

I suspect GARA here is taking advantage of what the PLA/ state owned enterprise was able to perform.

They won't let the actual thing be shown. If it is indeed GARA's HGV that was tested deploying a submunition, this probably isn't an accurate representation of the HGV they used and certainly isn't how it is loaded. That much would be obvious.
It could be a real design for this specific purpose. The carrier only use its HGV feature for range and cruise altitude, the carrier does not need accuracy but a general area. The accuracy is achieve by the submunitions. At the far end of the cruise range, the speed could be very low (the further it goes the lower the terminal velocity), as low as subsonic.

HGV like DF-17 relies on kinetic energy of high precision single warhead at impact. While this GDF-600 would be using HGV for range and altitude only.
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
Surely this is not how they are deployed. This GARA company seems to be a private one? The state owned/ PLA backed HGV is the one that released a payload as referenced in the FT article, unlikely to be some random private company that uses such a model. I understand it's only trying to show carrying capability but that is certainly not a good representation of how a carrier HGV deploys submunition. The centre of gravity would be changed too suddenly for flight controls to compensate, particularly at those speeds.

I suspect GARA here is taking advantage of what the PLA/ state owned enterprise was able to perform.

They won't let the actual thing be shown. If it is indeed GARA's HGV that was tested deploying a submunition, this probably isn't an accurate representation of the HGV they used and certainly isn't how it is loaded. That much would be obvious.
The translations says the HGV… Disintegrates. I don’t believe the submunitions are “deployed”, I believe they simply survive the disintegration of their carrier, and then go about their business.
 
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