Chinese Geopolitics

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Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
Jeff Head said:
The US and China are the major powers in the Pacific...but other strong nations like Australia, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc., etc. cannot, and must not be treated as weaklings that have no say. In truth, no nation should be who is willing to engage in any dialog at all.
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Let's start with the premise Pacific nations, regardless of size or strength shouldn't be excluded from 'having a say' in Asian affairs, and I'm not dismissing said nations with my US-China 'primus inter pares' comments. Most geopolitical pundits say China-US relations is the most important bilateral relationship in at least the front half of the 21st Century, and if the two get along famously, then the entire world will benefit; if the two continue down the path of greater and greater strategic rivalry, then the entire world would suffer. In the long-run, there could be four Great Powers leading Asia, US, China, Japan, and India, and a possible fifth in Indonesia, if it ever get its act together. US and China need to set the pace and pave the road, because unless and until US and China accept each other as equals, then conditions would not be favorable to long-term peace and stability in Asia.

The bottom line is the US must accept China as an equal, and China must accept strong and continued American presence in Asia. The US is a Pacific nation and efforts by China to push the US out of Asia is unproductive and unacceptable by America and by most Asian countries.
 
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mao_jr

Banned Idiot
Blackstone said:
Nope, not even close. Just like the American Navy sails where she pleases in international waters, US foreign policy will do likewise. If China impedes on US interests, then it will hear it from the US. The reverse is also true.
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where she pleases?? can china does as she pleases? There you go. US has too many interests. too big an appetite.
If US wants to coexist with China, her oversized appetite needs to cut down bit.
 
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Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
mao_jr said:
where she pleases?? can china does as she pleases? There you go. US has too many interests. too big an appetite.
If US wants to coexist with China, her oversized appetite needs to cut down bit.
Click to expand...

Just as the US Navy may sail where it pleases while in international waters, PLAN may also sail where it pleases while in international waters; all in accordance to UN maritime laws. Come to think of it, didn't we just see a PLAN spy ship off Hawaii's EEZ???

If China wants to coexist with America, she must stop trying to push the US out of Asia.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Blackstone said:
Let's start with the premise Pacific nations, regardless of size or strength shouldn't be excluded from 'having a say' in Asian affairs, and I'm not dismissing said nations with my US-China 'primus inter pares' comments. Most geopolitical pundits say China-US relations is the most important bilateral relationship in at least the front half of the 21st Century, and if the two get along famously, then the entire world will benefit; if the two continue down the path of greater and greater strategic rivalry, then the entire world would suffer. In the long-run, there could be four Great Powers leading Asia, US, China, Japan, and India, and a possible fifth in Indonesia, if it ever get its act together. US and China need to set the pace and pave the road, because unless and until US and China accept each other as equals, then conditions would not be favorable to long-term peace and stability in Asia.

The bottom line is the US must accept China as an equal, and China must accept strong and continued American presence in Asia. The US is a Pacific nation and efforts by China to push the US out of Asia is unproductive and unacceptable by America and by most Asian countries.
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China and the US are coming from two completely different perspectives. Where the US views international relations through the lens of a "social order", China views them as a series of bilateral relationships.

You talk about "Asian affairs" and "Pacific nations". None of that means anything to China, who only talks about relations with Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, etc.

Where you think US should always have a say in "Pacific affairs", China views such statements as intrusions in their bilateral negotiations with the corresponding nations.

In other words, China wants to negotiate with its neighbors, individually, without the US always butting in and muddying up the issues.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
mao_jr said:
where she pleases?? can china does as she pleases? There you go. US has too many interests. too big an appetite.
If US wants to coexist with China, her oversized appetite needs to cut down bit.
Click to expand...
China cannot presume to tell the US who she can and cannot ally herself with.

Neither can the US do the same to China.

If China is concerned with nations who have relations with the US, she...China...must present a face to other nations that would invite trust and relationships that would lead to those nations also, or alternatively, wanting similar relations with China.

Bellious statements like, "US has too many interests. too big an appetite. If US wants to coexist with China, her oversized appetite needs to cut down bit," are not grounded in the reality of what those interests and relationships are based upon, and grounded in.

China cannot wave some kind of majic wand, or simply state that such a condition cannot "coexist," with China. That condition already coexists with China. That is the reality. It will not simply be wished away, or somehow talked away, no matter who raises their voice.

If the PRC wants it to change they will have to spend the years and decades necessary to develop the relationships that change it.
 
T

texx1

Junior Member
Jeff Head said:
China cannot presume to tell the US who she can and cannot ally herself with.

Neither can the US do the same to China.
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I think mao_jr just wanted to point out the US's tendency to hypocritically lecture others on the international stage. He might have used a little stronger language. But then again, this thread has contained many instances of "PRC lecturing" from media pundits and posters alike.
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
solarz said:
China and the US are coming from two completely different perspectives. Where the US views international relations through the lens of a "social order", China views them as a series of bilateral relationships.

You talk about "Asian affairs" and "Pacific nations". None of that means anything to China, who only talks about relations with Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, etc.

Where you think US should always have a say in "Pacific affairs", China views such statements as intrusions in their bilateral negotiations with the corresponding nations.

In other words, China wants to negotiate with its neighbors, individually, without the US always butting in and muddying up the issues.
Click to expand...
America is in Asia in pursuance of her national interests, and let's have no delusions about it. If that means accommodating China, then that's what she will do, and if it means containing China, then she will do that too. Both the US and China are "middle kingdoms," and the choice at hand is whether to accommodate or oppose each other. If the former, then both nations must make serious compromises, and if the latter, then the "winner" might not be any better off than the "loser."
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
Jeff Head said:
China cannot presume to tell the US who she can and cannot ally herself with.

Neither can the US do the same to China.

If China is concerned with nations who have relations with the US, she...China...must present a face to other nations that would invite trust and relationships that would lead to those nations also, or alternatively, wanting similar relations with China.

Bellious statements like, "US has too many interests. too big an appetite. If US wants to coexist with China, her oversized appetite needs to cut down bit," are not grounded in the reality of what those interests and relationships are based upon, and grounded in.

China cannot wave some kind of majic wand, or simply state that such a condition cannot "coexist," with China. That condition already coexists with China. That is the reality. It will not simply be wished away, or somehow talked away, no matter who raises their voice.

If the PRC wants it to change they will have to spend the years and decades necessary to develop the relationships that change it.
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Well said, Jeff. China must understand her neighbors are understandably nervous about her return to her traditional place as hegemon of Asia, and they look to America for security. Asia is the engine of growth in the 21st Century, and the thought of pushing America from that is unrealistic. It wouldn't happen. On the other hand, the US must not allow some of her allies to entangle her in local territorial disputes. I'm pointing at you, Japan!
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
texx1 said:
I think mao_jr just wanted to point out the US's tendency to hypocritically lecture others on the international stage. He might have used a little stronger language. But then again, this thread has contained many instances of "PRC lecturing" from media pundits and posters alike.
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O'rly? I get just the opposite from junior mao. In my view, he's having a bit of fun trolling and flaming the forum.

Agreed on Western media's hobby of lecturing China.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Blackstone said:
America is in Asia in pursuance of her national interests, and let's have no delusions about it. If that means accommodating China, then that's what she will do, and if it means containing China, then she will do that too. Both the US and China are "middle kingdoms," and the choice at hand is whether to accommodate or oppose each other. If the former, then both nations must make serious compromises, and if the latter, then the "winner" might not be any better off than the "loser."
Click to expand...

The problem is, the US is pursuing relations with China through two different channels:

1- the direct channel, through bilateral China-US relations

2- the "proxy" channel, through China-Japan, China-Philippine, China-Vietnam, etc. relations.

This makes it very difficult for China to have an honest dialog with the US. In the direct channel, the US claims that it does not take a stance in China's border disputes. However, its actions in the proxy channel speaks otherwise. It is very much like someone who tells you face-to-face that they want to be friends, but then bad-mouths you behind your back to your other acquaintances.
 
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