Chinese Engine Development

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Zisan Artaxerxes said:
In march 2020, China Aerospace Studies Institute (CASI), USA published a research paper titled "China’s Aeroengine Industry" where they claimed that the WS-10 engine had a TBO of 500 hours only. Today in this article published in Business Insider claimed the same info picking up reference from Center for Strategic and International Studies, US which in terms also used CASI's claim from march 2020 about WS-10 engine as a reference. So , is it true that WS-10 engine's TBO is only 500 hours?
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Those numbers for TBO are bollocks. There are leaked numbers for TBO for Chinese engines in this forum. You do not even have to search that far. Even if we had no leaked numbers for TBO for Chinese engines, we know the TBO for Russian engines, and the Chinese would not have switched from Russian to Chinese engines if they had significantly worse characteristics.

For example Russian AL-31FM1 engine from 2006 had TBO of 1000 hours and lifetime of 2000 hours. AL-31FM2 engine had lifetime of 3000 hours. Latest AL-41F1S engine from 2010 has lifetime of 4000 hours.
 
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Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
Zisan Artaxerxes said:
In march 2020 ,China Aerospace Studies Institute(CASI), USA published a research paper titled "China’s Aeroengine Industry" where they claimed that the WS-10 engine had a TBO of 500 hours only. Today in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
published in Business Insider claimed the same info picking up reference from Center for Strategic and International Studies, US which in terms also used CASI's claim from march 2020 about WS-10 engine as a reference. So , is it true that WS-10 engine's TBO is only 500 hours ?
Click to expand...
Might be correct for the very first batch of WS-10s, but that's completely outdated by now and very likely not in service, so also irrelevant.
 
sunnymaxi

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
Zisan Artaxerxes said:
In march 2020 ,China Aerospace Studies Institute(CASI), USA published a research paper titled "China’s Aeroengine Industry" where they claimed that the WS-10 engine had a TBO of 500 hours only. Today in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
published in Business Insider claimed the same info picking up reference from Center for Strategic and International Studies, US which in terms also used CASI's claim from march 2020 about WS-10 engine as a reference. So , is it true that WS-10 engine's TBO is only 500 hours ?
Click to expand...
Western experts probably 10 years behind times when it comes to Chinese gas turbine industry.

even WS-10A TBO wasn't 500 hours let alone current WS-10B/WS-10C variants. and WS-10A was a technology demonstrator, never entered in service.

ansy1968 said:
First thing first welcome to the forum bro hope you enjoy your stay here, second please read the whole thread, the one you mention is the first gen WS10, the A to C version had been improved on dramatically that base on @sunnymaxi info a 2000 TBO is the bare minimum with max up to 4000 TBO.

With WS15 coming to service, you bet whatever technological breakthrough will be applied to the WS10 family.
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WS-10 family continue to improve. even today Liming extensively working on WS-10 series.

WS-10 engine produce in 2022-23 is a different machine than WS-10 produced in 2018-19.

current WS-10 engine service life far exceed 4000 hours.

wish i could post some of the images of assembly lines. you will be shocked to see how advance and modern Chinese turbofan engine pulse assembly lines include WS-20/WS-15. digitalization and automation are the key.

this is how WS-20 currently producing. they have completed pulse assembly line in 2021.

001sJxoyly1hcqar02fh9j60ec05mdgl02.jpg

001sJxoyly1hcqar18ezfj60u00smjyd02.jpg
 
H

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
Zisan Artaxerxes said:
In march 2020 ,China Aerospace Studies Institute(CASI), USA published a research paper titled "China’s Aeroengine Industry" where they claimed that the WS-10 engine had a TBO of 500 hours only. Today in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
published in Business Insider claimed the same info picking up reference from Center for Strategic and International Studies, US which in terms also used CASI's claim from march 2020 about WS-10 engine as a reference. So , is it true that WS-10 engine's TBO is only 500 hours ?
Click to expand...
I debunked some of this on Reddit already.

You really should track down the sourcing for this claim. CASI didn't produce it out of their ass.

This is the full quote from Page 27 of CASI's report on China's engines.

Another weakness of Chinese aeroengines has been their short service lives. The PLA aspires to achieve Western levels of proficiency in its pilot training. This requires that each aircraft be flown several hundred hours a year. Chinesemade engines based on Soviet designs and imported Russian-made engines, however, have very short service lives. Early versions of the Soviet-Russian AL31F engine, for example, which powers most of China’s J-11 and J-10 fighter aircraft, had a time-between-overhauls (TBO)k of 300 hours, whereas Western aeroengines typically have TBOs of 2,000 hours.70 In addition, these engines can only be rebuilt three times, so they have a total service life of only 900 hours. As the PLA spends more time doing maritime training, moreover, considerations like seawater corrosion may further reduce engine lifespans. Reportedly the domestically-manufactured Taihang engine, however, has now reached a TBO of 500 hours. This is a major improvement from its previously reported TBO of 300 hours.
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Citation #70 is this article;

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This is a 2018 article that itself notes the following;

The TBO of the AL-31F -M1 engine has been increased to 750 hours, and the total flight hours have reached 1500 hours. The TBO of the latest 117S turbofan engine has been further increased by 1,000 hours, and the total flight hours have been increased to 4,000 flight hours, which means that the engine of the Su-35S fighter jet does not require major repairs within 5 years, and its service life is as long as 20 years.
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Suffice to say. I do not believe that the latest iterations of the WS-10 engine have TBOs of less than 500 hours. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the engine has become extremely reliable, on par with Western engines.
 
A

A.Man

Major
Zisan Artaxerxes said:
In march 2020 ,China Aerospace Studies Institute(CASI), USA published a research paper titled "China’s Aeroengine Industry" where they claimed that the WS-10 engine had a TBO of 500 hours only. Today in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
published in Business Insider claimed the same info picking up reference from Center for Strategic and International Studies, US which in terms also used CASI's claim from march 2020 about WS-10 engine as a reference. So , is it true that WS-10 engine's TBO is only 500 hours ?
Click to expand...
We saw increased J-16's missions around the East China Sea, Taiwan surrounding water, and the South China Sea; but we did not hear any engine problems or crashes. We only heard Taiwan F-16's crashes and Japanese F-15's will run out engine service hours very soon.
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
China switched from AL-31FM2 in the J-20 to the WS-10C. There is like no way they would have done it if it was worse.
So are we supposed to believe they switched to an engine with a third or a half of the lifetime?

That Sina article is also from 2018 and who knows how old the information it was based on is?
 
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OppositeDay

Senior Member
Registered Member
gelgoog said:
These are gas turbines with kinda piddling power levels for power generation.
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You would think a WS-10 engine derivative could do this. Well I guess the deal might make sense for that particular Chinese company.
I did not even know MAN made gas turbines. They were certainly not a major player like Siemens, GE, Hitachi, or Ansaldo.
The whole business is in a major slump worldwide as it is, GE is hemorrhaging losses.
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The buyer is a subsidiary of CSIC Power. CSIS Power don't have the tech base to do aeroderivatives so they bought the German business. CSIC Power has a blood feud with AECC.

HighGround said:
I debunked some of this on Reddit already.

You really should track down the sourcing for this claim. CASI didn't produce it out of their ass.

This is the full quote from Page 27 of CASI's report on China's engines.



Citation #70 is this article;

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This is a 2018 article that itself notes the following;



Suffice to say. I do not believe that the latest iterations of the WS-10 engine have TBOs of less than 500 hours. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the engine has become extremely reliable, on par with Western engines.
Click to expand...

So think tankers are getting their information on WS-10 from a random blogger named 小飞猪观察 aka 小飞猪的防务观察 (Little Flying Pig's Defense Monitor). Why am I not surprised?
 
R

RadDisconnect

New Member
Registered Member
gelgoog said:
Those numbers for TBO are bollocks. There are leaked numbers for TBO for Chinese engines in this forum. You do not even have to search that far. Even if we had no leaked numbers for TBO for Chinese engines, we know the TBO for Russian engines, and the Chinese would not have switched from Russian to Chinese engines if they had significantly worse characteristics.

For example Russian AL-31FM1 engine from 2006 had TBO of 1000 hours and lifetime of 2000 hours. AL-31FM2 engine had lifetime of 3000 hours. Latest AL-41F1S engine from 2010 has lifetime of 4000 hours.
Click to expand...
From what I saw, the alleged TBO for current WS-10B/C is around 1,200 hours and the original WS-10A was 500 hours although it struggled with that initially. I don’t know what the total life is, but I’ve heard 2,000 to 2,400 hours.

This compares to the AL-31FM2 and AL-41F1S having TBO of 1,000 hours and life of 3,000 hours and 4,000 hours.

Certainly better than the initial AL-31F and WS-10 durability but still not up to Western standards yet. The TBO for F119 and F135 is 2,000 hours for hot section and 4,000 hours for cold section, but the F135 is running hotter than designed since F-35 cooling requirements increased, so current TBO is “only” 1,600 hours, which the whole US aerospace industry is making a big fuss about.
 
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