Chinese Engine Development

Deino said:

Well ... as much as I'm impressed by the most recent progress, it must be admitted that by all accounts we know, most of the mentioned points are valid, both that Chinese engines "are not as reliable like US or Western ones" and also "that they are years behind"! To what extent they are less reliable and how many years behind is beyond my understanding, but even you must admit, the F119 and F135 are decades old and surely still the benchmark for any modern fighter engine.

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i never said. Chinese engine surpassed Western counterparts in service life and other specifications. there is still a gap. but they are rapidly closing the gap with latest models. this is what i meant.

Deino said:

As such as much as I disagree with these general's typical statements, I disagree to a similar extent with your "HAHAHAHAHAH and Lols!"
In fact this is the same - sorry to sound rude - believe in stupid propaganda like you accuse the US statements being stupid or "usual baseless argument" from US generals.

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sorry. i shouldn't have write this "HAHAHAHAHAH"

Deino said:

Again, I do not want to downrate the latest achievements and also the steps towards catching up, but we must admit, the US is also not sleeping, and also has new technologies in development, the new engine for the 6th generation fighter will surely push that bar up to the next level and if China can not only catch up the F135's level within a few years - you mention 10 - but even completely be on par with the then latest technology is IMO far from sure.

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agreed with your statement.

but we all know that, China is also working on next generation engine. could be VCE or 4 turbine with compression ratio10 configuration.

Liu Daxiang A Famous Academician from Chinese Academy of Engineering. during his presentation in December 2022, when he confirmed WS-15 flight test. he specifically mentioned by 2035 China will be tier 1 player in aero engine industry.

Derpy said:

Some short notes on their views:
WS series engines are unreliable with short life

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They claim in the video that Chinese engines last hundreds of hours while US engines last thousands of hours. The main technological advancements made by the West in the 1970s-80s which enabled these improvements were single crystal turbine blades and FADEC. We have several reports that China has both of these technologies in the latest WS-10 series engines. Modern Russian engines last thousands of hours and have done so for at least a decade. So this technological advantage has mostly been lost at this point.

If Chinese military engines still had reliability issues they wouldn't be using them in single engine jets like the J-10, and their export clients like Pakistan wouldn't be buying aircraft with the WS-10.

The main advantage in modern civilian engines past that is built-in self-diagnostics to make engine maintenance easier. It is quite likely that modern Chinese civilian engines also have that.

Derpy said:

Engines are 20-25 years behind U.S tech

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Arguably true. I would say Chinese engines in current production are basically at the technological level of the Super Hornet engines. Basically 4.5th generation. But the WS-15 is supposed to enter service soon, and that would reduce the gap by like a decade.

Derpy said:

U.S military engine sector benefits from civilian engine sector.

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This is true and it kind of cuts both ways. For example the latest generation Pratt & Whitney engines are based on the same engine core as in the F135 used in the F-35. But China is also moving in the same direction with engines like the WS-20. I expect this to be even more of a case over the next decade.

sunnymaxi said:

i never said. Chinese engine surpassed Western counterparts in service life and other specifications. there is still a gap. but they are rapidly closing the gap with latest models. this is what i meant.


sorry. i shouldn't have write this "HAHAHAHAHAH"


agreed with your statement.

but we all know that, China is also working on next generation engine. could be VCE or 4 turbine with compression ratio10 configuration.

Liu Daxiang A Famous Academician from Chinese Academy of Engineering. during his presentation in December 2022, when he confirmed WS-15 flight test. he specifically mentioned by 2035 China will be tier 1 player in aero engine industry.

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Again ...and I can only ask not to get me wrong: I admire your enthusiasm, I adore your knowledge in this specific topic and as such I hope - regardless all critical comments - you know how much I wish whatever you already claim. But my feeling tells me to be careful and at least by my limited understanding in this topic, I think we should underestimate the West and overhype what China as achieved.

Anyway I'm sure, interesting times are ahead ... and we'll surely see together when China is really on par.

How many years behind? Well, entirely depends on how you calculate. It is a semantic issue.

1. Several decades behind. China achieved the performance criteria of American engines in the early 90's.

2. Less than a decade behind. China has all the necesarry pre-requisute tech to match USA. What they lack is optimisation. USA has not improved much since several decades ago, their work is done on optimisations. It would take less than a decade for China to catch up after few optimisation cycles.

3. China is equal to US. Both are roughly at equal stage of 6th gen fighter program and roughly equal combined cycle engine program progress.

4. China is ahead of USA due to advanced hypersonic research. Chinese program tend to be faster and face less random delay. China will likely achieve next gen first. Whatever engine we have today will be leapfrogged. No one will say Russia is world leading in computing because they are ahead in analog computer...


All 4 seemingly contradictory statement can be right to some extent.

The issue with the video is not so much that China has completely caught up or even surpassed the US or the West in military aircraft engine. It is not. It's also a debatable point how many years China is behind the US in military engine because there are many different ways to measure that. When did the US start to deploy the engines like F110 or F119 and when did China start to deploy WS-10B or will do WS-15? That's one way to measure it. But you can also ask what are the gaps in years between the mainstream military aircraft engines that the US deploys and China deploys (WS-10B/C) or will soon deploy (WS-15/WS-19) measured from today? In other words, looking now and forward, not backward. I guess those numbers will be drastically shorter. In terms of the next-generation military aircraft engine (5th-gen), we don't know what the gap will be, but I'm pretty sure it will be drastically shorter. In the context of a conflict between the US and China today or in a few years (say 2027), what measurements are most relevant?

I understand the western (particularly US) pride, and I also get the Chinese pride, but that video is clearly biased and sometimes factually erroneous (single-crystal etc.). Only three countries in the world today have developed and deployed the most mainstream large-thrust military aircraft engines. They're the US (F110), Russia (AL-31) and China (WS-10). That counts for something. The guests are either pretty ignorant about the status of Chinese engine industry or deliberately misleading. I stopped watching the video after the segment between 14'24" and 17'. That part basically tells you everything that the guests want to say. Everything else would follow that and would be a waste of time to listen for most of us here.

weig2000 said:

Only three countries in the world today have developed and deployed the most mainstream large-thrust military aircraft engines. They're the US (F110), Russia (AL-31) and China (WS-10).

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A better metric IMO is comparing thrust to weight ratio's. Anything less than 9:1 is considered inadequate for today's fighter aircraft.

sunnymaxi said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

as usual baseless argument/discussion from US generals. they are about 10 years behind times on Chinese engine technology.

WS series engines are highly reliable. Chinese engine are yet to surpass West in reliability and service life. but it is matter of few years. WS-15/WS-19 closed the gap.

China is now the global powerhouse in science and technology. they seems to live in the past.

China will be at the par with USA in engine technology by 2030.

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What would be the definition of "western" in this context? What is the problem with just being behind the "best"?

henrik said:

What would be the definition of "western" in this context? What is the problem with just being behind the "best"?

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China must always aspire to be the best and work to achieve it. Being complacent is the surest path to failure.

Derpy said:

Think tank on Chinese engine development

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Should have some insight but i am not sure how up to date he is.

Some short notes on their views:
WS series engines are unreliable with short life
Engines are 20-25 years behind U.S tech
Chinese can innovate but their system prevents it.. (A lot of this rhetoric)
U.S military engine sector benefits from civilian engine sector.

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Bad interview

There are a few red flag behaviors that cause me to instantly develop a suspicion about the writer or speaker. Just an instinct that grew over my 20 years of following the defense industry. Excessive focus on single crystal blades during jet engine discussion is among those red flags. That tech is neither new nor that important. It went through numerous iterations itself. It has been in widespread use for 45 years so the guy contradicted himself by saying "China is trying to learn single crystal blades" and "China is 20-25 years behind". WS series being unreliable is outdated info. There are no ways China putting WS-10s on a single-engine jet otherwise. I would be extremely surprised if WS-10B doesn't have a 1000+ hour MTBO and 3000+ hour lifespan. And interview snippets we have indeed suggest they have.

"xx years behind" is not a useful benchmark method either. Especially since "backward" engines are powering most of USAF.

The part about Chinese innovation is totalitarianism trope. Doesn't even need discussion.

BoraTas said:

Bad interview

There are a few red flag behaviors that cause me to instantly develop a suspicion about the writer or speaker. Just an instinct that grew over my 20 years of following the defense industry. Excessive focus on single crystal blades during jet engine discussion is among those red flags. That tech is neither new nor that important. It went through numerous iterations itself. It has been in widespread use for 45 years so the guy contradicted himself by saying "China is trying to learn single crystal blades" and "China is 20-25 years behind". WS series being unreliable is outdated info. There are no ways China putting WS-10s on a single-engine jet otherwise. I would be extremely surprised if WS-10B doesn't have a 1000+ hour MTBO and 3000+ hour lifespan. And interview snippets we have indeed suggest they have.

"xx years behind" is not a useful benchmark method either. Especially since "backward" engines are powering most of USAF.

The part about Chinese innovation is totalitarianism trope. Doesn't even need discussion.

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Yes，according to most Chinese articles，WS-10 has a lifespan over 3000 hours. Admittedly still very short compare to modern US engines，but much longer than the "few hundred hours" figure claimed by this video.

Also the "single crystal blades" is already outdated，the industry is moving towards ceramic/SiC composite materials now