For example, there are ongoing talks for CE to develop and produce CR929 engine. From the Russian side it is going to be a pd-35 based solution.
Not a fighter engine, but still the very edge of russian engine development.
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
Not a fighter engine, but still the very edge of russian engine development.
Hyperwarp
Captain
I didn't know the PD-35 can supercruise.
*Facepalm* You are talking about a commercial airliner. C919 got bids for the engines from and CFM International and Pratt & Whitney. Doesn't mean they share the tech for building the engines in China and it certainly doesn't mean P&W will be allowed to sell F119 or F135 to China. Same goes to the CR929. Russia is going just supply PD-35. Are they going to share the tech an allow local Chinese production? I seriously doubt it.Even to this day, Russia has not allowed local Chinese production of even the baseline AL-31F. China, later on, may have managed to modify it on their own. This is the rumor going around for the current J-20 engines. Even when Russia was in much dire economic state in the 90's they refused license production of the AL-31F to China. They also refused the sale of aircraft like the Tu-22, Tu-160, nuclear submarine, and ballistic missile tech.
The only thing the Russians might do is allow the sale of the 117 (not the 117S) when the Izd.30 comes into service. Even that would be a direct sale and not sharing of technology for local production. Certain things are simply off-limits for any nation when it comes to military sales. Russia knows China's "Achilles heel" to be high-performance turbofans and they are not going to help change that. China is on her own when it comes to the WS-15. What China can do is poach scientists from Russia who have extensive experience in that field.
I didn't know the PD-35 can supercruise.
Even to this day, Russia has not allowed local Chinese production of even the baseline AL-31F. China, later on, may have managed to modify it on their own. This is the rumor going around for the current J-20 engines. Even when Russia was in much dire economic state in the 90's they refused license production of the AL-31F to China. They also refused the sale of aircraft like the Tu-22, Tu-160, nuclear submarine, and ballistic missile tech.
The only thing the Russians might do is allow the sale of the 117 (not the 117S) when the Izd.30 comes into service. Even that would be a direct sale and not sharing of technology for local production. Certain things are simply off-limits for any nation when it comes to military sales. Russia knows China's "Achilles heel" to be high-performance turbofans and they are not going to help change that. China is on her own when it comes to the WS-15. What China can do is poach scientists from Russia who have extensive experience in that field.
The on the CR929 does say the following:
This would indicate a common engine design for final production as opposed to simply building separate engines a la PD-35 or CJ-2000.
The PD-35 is supposed to be an engine option for the civilian airliner CR929 which is supposed to be an aircraft in the 787/A330 class. Russia has also considered using a version of the engine to power the An-124 Ruslan because the engines of those aircraft were originally manufactured in Ukraine by Motor Sich.
However do not think it is impossible to use the technology for it in a military application later. Look at the PD-14 for example:
Remove that turbofan section and the engine core has remarkably much less diameter. It could be used for a subsonic bomber for example. Add an afterburner to it and you have a supersonic bomber. Much like the Chinese are using the WS-10 as the core for the WS-20 but the other way around.
However do not think it is impossible to use the technology for it in a military application later. Look at the PD-14 for example:
Remove that turbofan section and the engine core has remarkably much less diameter. It could be used for a subsonic bomber for example. Add an afterburner to it and you have a supersonic bomber. Much like the Chinese are using the WS-10 as the core for the WS-20 but the other way around.
Yes for sure, especially since designing a modern military engine is simply some sort of LEGO or plug & play engineering. Come on .... we are not a fan-boy forum like the Key-Forum where even Turkey can develop a F119-class engine within 5 years even without any former experience.
I didn't know the PD-35 can supercruise.
Even to this day, Russia has not allowed local Chinese production of even the baseline AL-31F. China, later on, may have managed to modify it on their own. This is the rumor going around for the current J-20 engines. Even when Russia was in much dire economic state in the 90's they refused license production of the AL-31F to China. They also refused the sale of aircraft like the Tu-22, Tu-160, nuclear submarine, and ballistic missile tech.
The only thing the Russians might do is allow the sale of the 117 (not the 117S) when the Izd.30 comes into service. Even that would be a direct sale and not sharing of technology for local production. Certain things are simply off-limits for any nation when it comes to military sales. Russia knows China's "Achilles heel" to be high-performance turbofans and they are not going to help change that. China is on her own when it comes to the WS-15. What China can do is poach scientists from Russia who have extensive experience in that field.
When did PLA ever approach Russia for nuclear submarines, Tu 160 etc? AFAIK Russia tried to sell Tu 160s once, but PLA turned them down. (Most likely a maintenance cost and doctrine thing. Nothing wrong with Tu 160 at all)
Way things are shaping up, Russia won’t finish the Izd 30 before Xian finishes WS 15, and even optimistically speaking, the Izd 30 would only be on par with it (195kN+ w 3D TVC)
The only reason to co develop engines with Russia would be to increase cross compatibility if China one day wants a heavily unified army with Russia. As much as I’d like to see it, there is no sign of such a thing happening.
Hyperwarp
Captain
Long, long time ago. In the 90's (and may be early 2000s). Don't forget that the PLA was in terrible shape back then. After witnessing a better equipped Iraqi military get dismantle in 1991, PLA looked to Russia for many things not just aircrafts. But Russia was willing to sell only non-strategic equipment and no tech transfer when it came to engines. Many years later Russia was willing to sell the Tu-22 but China said no thanks. It was for the better because China has made a meteoric rise.
I don't recall Russia ever offering intercontinental strategic bombers for sale. They did offer maritime strike bombers which were declined by the PLA after much consideration.
The Izd.30 has at least appeared in flight while the WS-15, from gongke's comments, seems to be in final assembly. The rumoured performance parameters of the Izd.30 also look to be more ambitious than the WS-15 in areas such as pressure ratio and turbine inlet temperature. Pure thrust and TVC nozzles are ancillaries and not the primary determinants of tech level. This puts their program at a higher baseline and some years ahead of the WS-15. They will still be of the same generation, of course, but these little details do indicate Russian tech hasn't fallen behind China's yet. High bypass-ratio engines show even more clearly Russia's extant lead over China whose PS-90-equivalent, the WS-20, still hasn't achieved design certification while the CJ-1000A, the PD-14 equivalent, only just got its first run on the ground with some years before a first flight.
Even though the Chinese engine development industry has become larger than Russia's, their cumulative work still hasn't caught up to the Soviet-Russo ecosystem whose lead in sheer product catalogue and areas such as powder metallurgy remain prominent. I would put a convergence date between overall Chinese and Russian engine tech at around 2030, possibly later if the Russian economy revitalises.
Whatever the case, in military terms, China should have closed the generation gap with the world within a decade. Intra-generation gaps in areas such as maintainability and lifespan will remain for some time after. The civilian sector won't be competitive for even longer but it's good to make a start early and aim for parity by mid century, the CPC's target date for China achieving high-income status.
Do you have a source on improved Izd 30 parameters? Most sources I’ve seen puts it behind both F135 and WS-15.
China doesn’t really do high bypass since the Air Force doesn’t favor large bombers at all. Even the H6K replacement is rumored to be smaller in size. Russia has a lot of expertise here, but it’s not in the PLAAF doctrine. Of course, that can change and Russia would be an excellent partner to explore builds with.
It’s super misleading to say there is a generation gap with “the world”. There’s exactly one power that can claim to have an engine one generation ahead of China, and that’s America. And they’re one generation ahead of everyone else as well (at least until the WS15 and Izd 30 finishes). It’s more factual to say that US is ahead of everyone else.
Even America runs on mostly older engines.
Baseline WS 10s are equivalent to F15 engines and make up the lions of share of PLAAF just like F15s make up USAF.
Upgraded WS10s reach the F22 engine’s performance, but until recently lacked TVC.
Until the WS-15 comes online, there is no equivalent to F35 engines in China.
The almighty “generational gap” only extends to a handful of F35s.
What Russia has going for it is building better nuclear submarines than everyone else
Pardon and again I hope not to offend anyone. Can we stay realistic???
These "equivalent to F15 engines" however are around in the US since the late 1970s and from where the hell do you come to the conclusion that "upgraded WS10s reach the F22 engine’s performance"???
Not sure if some are so much blinded by wishfull-thinking or what they are smoking, but to compare a WS-10XYZ with roughly 140kN (thrust to weight ratio of 7.5:1) with a F119 with +155kn (thrust to weight ratio of 9:1) and this again is not a new engine.