Chinese Engine Development

So you're discarding sources because they offend you?

FYI, we already saw WS-10B on the 2001. Most of initial development was using AL-31 or derivatives, however, and only now has the J-20 returned to using WS-10B.

Read Minnie Chan carefully. The substantial information in the article is that "the WS-15 failed reliability trials", which is better than the last claim that the WS-15 blew up during testing in 2016 or environs.

I also don't see what's wrong with the PLA asking for help on the WS-15 from the Russians. The product 30 engine is at least doing flight-testing, and the Chinese have traditionally been behind the Russians in the engine field. If Russian assistance helps the WS-15 get to IOC earlier, that's all the better.

Inst said:

So you're discarding sources because they offend you?

FYI, we already saw WS-10B on the 2001. Most of initial development was using AL-31 or derivatives, however, and only now has the J-20 returned to using WS-10B.

Read Minnie Chan carefully. The substantial information in the article is that "the WS-15 failed reliability trials", which is better than the last claim that the WS-15 blew up during testing in 2016 or environs.

I also don't see what's wrong with the PLA asking for help on the WS-15 from the Russians. The product 30 engine is at least doing flight-testing, and the Chinese have traditionally been behind the Russians in the engine field. If Russian assistance helps the WS-15 get to IOC earlier, that's all the better.

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When did this happen? Pictorially, we have only seen 2021 powered by WS-10

Hyperwarp said:

When did this happen? Pictorially, we have only seen 2021 powered by WS-10

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I recall someone mentioned that the WS-10 was being tested on J-20 2001, but we never saw any pictures of it being flown. Quite likely, the fit was tested, or they chose to abort WS-10 tests at the last moment.

Inst said:

So you're discarding sources because they offend you?

FYI, we already saw WS-10B on the 2001. Most of initial development was using AL-31 or derivatives, however, and only now has the J-20 returned to using WS-10B.

Read Minnie Chan carefully. The substantial information in the article is that "the WS-15 failed reliability trials", which is better than the last claim that the WS-15 blew up during testing in 2016 or environs.

I also don't see what's wrong with the PLA asking for help on the WS-15 from the Russians. The product 30 engine is at least doing flight-testing, and the Chinese have traditionally been behind the Russians in the engine field. If Russian assistance helps the WS-15 get to IOC earlier, that's all the better.

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No, we’re discarding sources that make confident predictions with dubious information origins that don’t pan out. I think it’s pretty telling that when her assertion that the WS-15 was going to show up at Zhuhai didn’t pan out she changed the story rather than offer a retraction with an explanation for how she sourced the information and where that sourcing went wrong. That’s very sketch journalistic ethics for a supposed “award winning” journalist.

Inst said:

...
I also don't see what's wrong with the PLA asking for help on the WS-15 from the Russians. The product 30 engine is at least doing flight-testing, and the Chinese have traditionally been behind the Russians in the engine field. If Russian assistance helps the WS-15 get to IOC earlier, that's all the better.

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Any assistance on engines provided by Russia will be at least a generation behind what Russia uses domestically. Russia is not going to help China build an extended supercruise capable engine with dry thrust of around 105 to 110 kN and 155+ kN with afterburner. China is on their own when it comes to the WS-15. They can, however, hire scientists who worked at Saturn and Salut.

by78 said:

Could you not post anything from Minnie Chan again? This thread is not for trolling.

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Yes indeed and it seems Inst is again on a holy crusade ....

Inst said:

So you're discarding sources because they offend you?

....

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Please, it is not that thee Minnie Chan reports would offend us, they simply contradict everything we know and what others say. But anyway since you seem to be so sure (since it fits your agenda??) please help us out with some proof on points you seem to be quite sure on:

Inst said:

FYI, we already saw WS-10B on the 2001. Most of initial development was using AL-31 or derivatives, however, and only now has the J-20 returned to using WS-10B.
...

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FYI??? by what information? We have never seen a WS-10 on 2001 and I think I know quite well the collection of images. Also, all initial development was done on AL-31. Otherwise I would be very happy to learn. If you however cannot show us such an image, Your statement especially FYI = For Your information is plain wrong.

Inst said:

...
Read Minnie Chan carefully. The substantial information in the article is that "the WS-15 failed reliability trials", which is better than the last claim that the WS-15 blew up during testing in 2016 or environs.
....

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Pardon, but that sound just as a lame "I try to be no longer that sure with my statement, so I try to reverse it a bit ..." We have no information, that strange Russian newspaper surely has also none so why should she have better ones?

Inst said:

.....

I also don't see what's wrong with the PLA asking for help on the WS-15 from the Russians. The product 30 engine is at least doing flight-testing, and the Chinese have traditionally been behind the Russians in the engine field. If Russian assistance helps the WS-15 get to IOC earlier, that's all the better.

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That's IMO the - pardon to say so - most stupid part of your futile attempt to save your theory: Do you really think XAE would grant access to any Russian company on their most secret and most advanced engine project?? How desperate is this ....

Pardon, but as we say in Germany: You are completely on the "Holzweg".

Forget Minnie chan and everything she writes, it's not even worth to read.

Deino

Hyperwarp said:

Any assistance on engines provided by Russia will be at least a generation behind what Russia uses domestically. Russia is not going to help China build an extended supercruise capable engine with dry thrust of around 105 to 110 kN and 155+ kN with afterburner. China is on their own when it comes to the WS-15. They can, however, hire scientists who worked at Saturn and Salut.

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Russia doesn’t have a 195kN class engine, even if they were very eager to help, how would they do it?

Ofc joint research with Russia wouldn’t make the industry worse. At worst, they will still get some more opinions.

Deino said:

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Uh oh! Deino is in "Beast-mode".

Biscuits said:

Russia doesn’t have a 195kN class engine, even if they were very eager to help, how would they do it?

Ofc joint research with Russia wouldn’t make the industry worse. At worst, they will still get some more opinions.

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That's the whole point. They would never help with an engine of that class. The Saturn Izd.30 is a 180 kN class engine with dry a thrust of over 100 kN. It is now being tested on the T-50-2. But the point is the Russians will never share that tech. So Inst saying PLA asking for Russian help is "ok" doesn't make sense since they won't give that help.

The whole point is moot. No one (except the author of that article) expected a WS-15 powered J-20 to show up. Hell, we would have been lucky to even see a photo of the WS-15.

Russia does, or at least the Soviet Union did, have such a thrust class of engine. I mean just look at the Tu-22M or Tu-160 engines. However those engines had really crappy thrust-to-weight ratios. The Tu-160 engine (Kuznetsov NK-32) is a 4th gen, not a 5th gen, using the older materials available at that time. So it is huge.

China has made great strides with their engines over the past decade though. FADEC, improved high temperature, low temperature materials, etc. I still think they are still kinda artisan like in design and the engine construction and reliability numbers are not quite there yet. But perhaps I am wrong. They have manufactured over a hundred engines already for their Flanker clones. I do think they need more competition in the engine field however. Multiple design bureaus and workshops at least.