Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
I followed the rabbit hole from on Sina Military. It claimed that the codename of WS-19 is Huangshan and is equivalent to F414.
The in the China Knowledge Resource Integrated Database has a blurb about turbine blade measuring tools. It mentioned that the tool were used in the development of WS-18 and WS-19. It should be safe to assume the two projects do exist as of 2011. However, the specs of those engines in the Sina story is just speculations.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
From Oedo
IL-76LL aerial engine testing machine equipped with WS-20 engine. The development of WS - 20 is nearly completed, it seems that we will start the on - board test using Y - 20 in near future
IL-76LL aerial engine testing machine equipped with WS-20 engine. The development of WS - 20 is nearly completed, it seems that we will start the on - board test using Y - 20 in near future
Vincent with your permission I repost your excellent article and translation on WS10A development and why the development is so tortuous. Lacking in depth GT technical base they take a short cut by using CFM56 core. But it bring it with it, it own set of problem as vincent convincingly translate this article
The real history of WS10. Using iPhone now. Will provide some translation later
2017-10-22 航空制造网
总师云：太行之难，难于上青天
来源：讲武堂
太行发动机，代号WS－10（涡扇10）， 是我国第一种研制成功的大推力涡轮风扇发动机，这种被寄予厚望的发动机命运忐忑，在定型量产后的12年里，一直被可靠性和耐用性问题困扰，原本中国空军期待太行能完全替代俄罗斯的AL－31F装备大约200架J10战斗机和大约300架J11战斗机，然而，到目前为止，太行因为种种原因，只被使用在数量不多的J11B和刚刚开始量产的J16上，总数仅约100架左右。
网络上对太行发动机一直褒贬不一，鼓吹的人不仅吹嘘发动机推力高达14吨，而且性能优异，赶美超俄；贬低的人说它是机库皇后，只能修不能用。哪么太行到底行不行？作为一款定型量产的货架产品，它到底怎么了？
一说太行，难免说到历史，中国航空发动机史上对12吨级的发动机从60年代末就开始了，当时三机部为J9战斗机，强6攻击机，轰8大型轰炸机等飞机配套的910发动机研制项目就是为了研制一种推力达到12吨的涡轮风扇发动机。WS6的设计是一个航空大跃进，在中国当时连苏联引进的发动机生产都不算正常的年代，设计了一种与当时主流科技完全相当的发动机，凭借着对当时革命的狂热和科技领域一无所知的无畏探索，WS6轰轰烈烈的上马了。
WS6发动机的设计从1964年到1965年，仅用了不到一年的时间，这是一个美国和苏联都不敢想象的时间，这意味着中国的设计师和工程师根本没有任何时间去研究发动机的主要部件，他们一切都是凭借当时的知识和有限的信息，纯粹在图纸案台上就完成了一台高度复杂的，具有当时世界最先进水平的涡轮风扇发动机的设计。
这样的草率的发动机设计和研发，很显然为后来的困难奠定了基础，WS6发动机在1968年就制造出了样机，并开始了台架试车，这一试就试到1980年。经历了文革的乱象，WS6的漫长研制期并不算奇怪，当时国内几乎所有的科研计划多多少少都有这样的情况，但是文革不仅仅是对科技研发有了恶劣的影响，对人的思想也有了恶劣的影响。
在1978年J9战斗机进入首架飞机生产准备时，WS6在台架上连正常运行5小时的记录都没有，而且推力也远未达到设计要求的数据，1979年J9计划暂停，1980年整个项目宣布结束，就在快要结束的不到8个月的时间里，在几乎没有项目后续拨款，连燃料都没有钱购买的情况下，WS6神奇的突然完成了规定的台架试车，并号称达到设计推力，并在随后没有任何拨款情况下凭空通过发动机的短试，高空台，长试，直抵飞前试车，这意味WS6完全完成了研制的全程，而6台样机总试车334小时，12年334小时，瑞典同等级的RM8仅仅是在成熟的发动机JT8D后面加了个加力燃烧室，试车时间都不小于2000小时。
更神奇的是，在这个已经死的被人遗忘的项目上，还产生了一个更令人震惊的成果WS6G，仅重新设计了风扇，燃烧室，就得到了一个推力高达14112KG的重量不到2200KG的涡扇发动机，这还只是在1982年。要知道2年后的新歼会议为了发动机愁的准备用重量更重，推力不到13000KG的R－29涡喷发动机了，难道航空部不知道自己还有个这么牛逼的发动机？
ws6：吹牛不上税，吹牛不犯法，为何不吹？牛越大钱越多，不吹白不吹
WS6的研发团队很多人都成为后来发动机项目的骨干，它的一些作风，习气也不免带到其他发动机的研制中去了，另起炉灶的WP14昆仑，生搬硬拉，凑出一个号称世界上最先进的涡喷，实际上10几年前的JY101和P1128只是没好意思说话而已，昆仑的纸面性能确实非常不错，比当时国内的WP13推力大，油耗低，发动机迎风面积小，虽然比不上F404这类涡扇发动机，但也算是难得的一种中推发动机了，但是昆仑仅仅生产了不到100台就嘎然而止了，部队连续反馈发动机重大质量问题，最后干脆认为发动机根本不能用了，J8F直接装回原来老的WP13A2.空军更直接把一批装昆仑发动机的J8F退回飞机厂，拒绝接收。
直到现在，昆仑能不能用几乎是一个迷，一方面部队装备数量稀少，另一方面也缺乏积累应用和维修的足够采样数据库，但昆仑先成功后失败是毫无疑问了，国内后来用到中推发动机的飞机型号，不管是设计还是试飞，都想办法绕开它，完全当它不存在，可见多不受欢迎了。
Translation by vincent
The core of WS-10 is based on CFM56-3. Unfortunately CFM56-3 was designed for civilian use. Many of its design features aren't suitable for a military engine. For example, the air presure produced by the high pressure compressor section is very high and the air flow is low. There aren't much room to make changes. This caused the pressure generated by the high pressure compressor section too high. For comparison sake, AL31, F100 and F404 high pressure compressor produced 21-25x pressure. WS10's reached 32. This results in the intake temperature of the combustion chamber in WS-10 100+ degrees higher than AL-31 and F100. By pure logic, the temperature at the exit point of the combustion is 100+ degrees higher as well.
The high temperature forced single-crystal fan blades, highly complex cooling system and toughen fan disk (?涡轮) to be used. The weight of the engine increased. The fan disk has high probability of cracking and spewing broken pieces
Another problem is the fan and the core were designed separately. Under certain conditions, the compressure can no longer produce airflow. It is normal for WS-10 to die in mid-flight. This is the reason no single engine planes use WS-10. Even on J11b, there are many incident of both engines flameout.
Due to lack of options, the government builded three teams to fix WS-10's issues. Team A came up with the solution of reducing the output of the engine during normal use. A flip of a switch will increase the performance to the design spec at the cost of reduce engine life and greater chance of engine problems. Reduce power is around 12 tons and the design spec power is 13 tons
Team B tries to increase engine's reliability by using more advance fan blades, improve the FADEC and other components to improve the output to 137KN
Team C focus on redesign the fan and make incremental improvements to other parts of the engines. The aim is to increase the output to 145KN+
Many of us guessed the WS-10 was problematic and the true reason J-10 was never officially equipped with it was because it was still too unreliable for single engined fighter. Let's hope future Chinese engine projects can resolve these issues if they are engineered from scratch.
So the Engine in this post was pointing towards the WS-10 after all. Now we just have to wait for the HMD to show up
I'm wondering if it would have been easier to work in the Kaveri / F414 class instead of the Al-31 / F110 class to begin with, with the Chinese turbofans. Going to a dual engine design with the J-10 would have been beneficial in that engine reliability issues would have been less dangerous. Instead, we get a case where the Indians, with less funding, screw up with the Kaveri, and the Chinese, with more funding, screw up with the WS-10. Smaller engines tend to have higher engineering tolerances, and given that China's biggest weakness is in the engine field, it might have been more interesting to attempt to do a quad engine design (like American-proposed Sixth-Gens) for a heavy fighter. Remember, if we're comparing the J-10 to the Rafale; the former will likely peak between 140 and 160 kN, while the latter has already reached 180 kN for a T/W of 1.2 loaded and 1.4 at combat weight.