Chinese Engine Development

Quickie · Apr 13, 2009

Lundblad.Jeff said:
I don't think the WS-10a is a copy, I just think Western sources assume China copies everything.

Is this photo not a J-11B?
[qimg]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IEJ3-_kC6JI/SA_dpDx6lLI/AAAAAAAAC28/iAxp_hJiHm4/s400/j11_01.jpg[/qimg]

The nozzels on this craft do not look like WS-10a. Perhaps initial J-11B's used AL-31F? Or just early J-11B prototypes?

The different exhaust hues of the 2 engine types are solid proof of them not being a copy of each other. It would be interesting to hear the explanations of the copy "theorist" with regard to the different exhaust hues! (Reference --> Picture of the J-11 engine testbed in flight)

"The nozzels on this craft do not look like WS-10a. Perhaps initial J-11B's used AL-31F? Or just early J-11B prototypes"

Is it possible the nozzle is darkened only (through some manufacturing process) for the purpose of camouflage in the way of reducing reflection? This wouldn't be necessary during the testing phase.

Deino · Apr 13, 2009

Does anyone knows what's that strange "thing" visible on both pictures ???

Deino

crobato · Apr 13, 2009

Its too easy to explain this.

You're looking at two different prototypes, not two different batches. If the plane is flying in yellow, its a prototype. You can excuse yellow planes if they're in the factory floor but operational planes will get painted before they leave the door, much less fly around. I will suppose that the second plane has more composite than the first one, part of the ongoing development process.

Understand one thing. The Chinese style of development is that they don't put New + New together but do New + Old. So they fit the WS-10A on an J-11A airframe but put the AL-31F on the prototype J-11B airframe. This way, it helps to rule out bugs in the testing. Later you probably combine the New + New.

In addition to the kits, China has orders of AL-31Fs used for spares. Quite a lot of them for the existing fleet. I gather, you can spare a pair or two for the development process of the J-11B.

Based on my own estimates of the ORBAT, the classic J-11/11A probably exceeded the number of kits by a dozen. 105 kits were imported, yet there are five regiments with 24 planes each of J-11s. So the number does not tally. I believe that a certain point, SAC were building J-11s with completely China made airframes but still using the Russian engines, FCS, radar and avionic systems, obtained as spares. Its kind of a transition model to the J-11B and is used to "proof" the Chinese made airframe.

tphuang · Apr 13, 2009

Lundblad.Jeff said:
I'm beginning to think that the media has misreported exactly how the J-11 have been produced. Perhaps these photos are of the wrong planes but it appears to me that the J-11B has been produced in two batches.

This photo shows an alleged J-11B in primer:
[qimg]http://cnair.top81.cn/fighter/J-11B.jpg[/qimg]

So does this one:
[qimg]http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/showimage.asp?imagename=j11_03large[/qimg]

But the picture I showed earlier is also a J-11B, but it's clearly different:
[qimg]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IEJ3-_kC6JI/SA_dpDx6lLI/AAAAAAAAC28/iAxp_hJiHm4/s400/j11_01.jpg[/qimg]

On the last picture, there is clearly less yellow and more green and brown, signifying that it probably uses more composite. It has always been said that the J-11B uses more composite, yet the first two pictures look solidly yellow. How do we reconcile this? Also, none of the pictures appear to be using WS-10a, as is commonly reported.

My concern is that if the J-11B uses WS-10a, how come we haven't seen a single photo to confirm it....not one.

Many websites say that J-11A kits stopped being shipped to China in 2004, but production itself did not end until 2006. I'm wondering if it is possible that J-11B production began in 2005 or 2006, but using leftover AL-31F engines and airframes from the J-11A kits. This would explain the difference in the airframes, and it would explain why we have no evidence of WS-10a engines in these planes. It also would explain why Russian sources say that the J-11B still uses 10% Russian parts. The planes would still use AL-31F engines and J-11A airframes, but would have an upgraded radar and avionics. Later production of the J-11B would use a revised airframe and WS-10A.

I'm not sure it jives with the facts, but I don't see any other reasonable explanation.

Never trust Russian sources on something produced in China. It was Kanwa that originally started the rumour J-11B is using AL-31F.
We know WS-10A is in mass production and that few if any J-10s are using it. We also know that no AL-31F contracts have been signed for J-11B. They had a contract for 180 AL-31F, but those were for pre-J-11B flankers. They simply have no possibility other than WS-10A.

Deino · Apr 15, 2009

maya said:
No doubt the J-11 testbed had its FWS10 engines installed.

[qimg]http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_0904/27_77564_792b93864f4fe59.jpg[/qimg]

Hu ... no-one with an idea ???

Lion · Apr 15, 2009

Deino said:
Hu ... no-one with an idea ???

You go ask Shenyang.

challenge · Apr 20, 2009

WS-15 undergoing ground test

内部人士透露：CJ-2000的原型机WS-15已经点火成功

[2009-04-19 21:38:36]

内部人士透露:自从CJ-2000于2005年4月14日17时38分，在中国燃气涡轮研究院地面试车台上检查性点火试验一次成功并顺利推到慢车状态后，经过多年试验，已经完成全尺寸技术验证机设计与验证，已经全面展开了原型机设计与工程制造，原型机(ws-15)在经历数十次大检查后，于2009年4月16日，在中国燃气涡轮研究院地面试车台上首次点火试验并一次成功。CJ-2000的原型机(ws15)是我国数十年研制成功的。

CJ2000的原型机(ws15)发动机循环参数的范围如下：
·推重比 9一级
·涵道比 0．35～0．4
·加力推力 16500kg左右
·加力耗油率 ≯1．85kg／kg·h
·最大状态推力 ≯10500kg
·最大状态耗油率 ≯0．75kg／kg·h
·总空气流量 ≯130kg／S
·总增压比 28左右
·涡轮前温度 (地面)1800k左右
·加力温度 (地面)2050k左右

Blitzo · Apr 20, 2009

Re: WS-15 undergoing ground test

challenge said:
内部人士透露：CJ-2000的原型机WS-15已经点火成功

[2009-04-19 21:38:36]

内部人士透露:自从CJ-2000于2005年4月14日17时38分，在中国燃气涡轮研究院地面试车台上检查性点火试验一次成功并顺利推到慢车状态后，经过多年试验，已经完成全尺寸技术验证机设计与验证，已经全面展开了原型机设计与工程制造，原型机(ws-15)在经历数十次大检查后，于2009年4月16日，在中国燃气涡轮研究院地面试车台上首次点火试验并一次成功。CJ-2000的原型机(ws15)是我国数十年研制成功的。

CJ2000的原型机(ws15)发动机循环参数的范围如下：
·推重比 9一级
·涵道比 0．35～0．4
·加力推力 16500kg左右
·加力耗油率 ≯1．85kg／kg·h
·最大状态推力 ≯10500kg
·最大状态耗油率 ≯0．75kg／kg·h
·总空气流量 ≯130kg／S
·总增压比 28左右
·涡轮前温度 (地面)1800k左右
·加力温度 (地面)2050k左右

Where did you get that from?

Interesting article though, not sure how credible it is.

Google Translator:

内部人士透露：CJ-2000的原型机WS-15已经点火成功

Internal sources: Since the CJ-2000 in at 17:38 on April 14, 2005, Gas Turbine Research Institute in China, test platform to check the ground firing test of a successful and smooth to the climbing state after years of testing, has been technology to verify the completion of full-size machine design and verification, has launched a comprehensive engineering design and prototype manufacture, prototype (ws-15) in the experience of dozens of large-scale inspection after April 16, 2009, gas turbine in China Institute of ground test stand and test the first time in a successful ignition. CJ-2000 prototype (ws15) was for decades the development of China's success.

CJ2000's prototype (ws15) engine cycle parameters are as follows:
Thrust-Weight Ratio 9 an
Ducted more than 0.35 ~ 0.4
Afterburner thrust about 16500kg
Afterburning耗油率≯ 1.85kg/kg h
≯ 10500kg thrust the state's largest
耗油率the largest state ≯ 0.75kg/kg h
The total air flow ≯ 130kg / S
Pressurized to 28 or so total
Temperature before the turbine (the ground) 1800k around
Afterburner temperature (ground) 2050k around

challenge · Apr 21, 2009

Re: WS-15 undergoing ground test

Bltizo said:
Where did you get that from?

Interesting article though, not sure how credible it is.

Google Translator:

内部人士透露：CJ-2000的原型机WS-15已经点火成功

Internal sources: Since the CJ-2000 in at 17:38 on April 14, 2005, Gas Turbine Research Institute in China, test platform to check the ground firing test of a successful and smooth to the climbing state after years of testing, has been technology to verify the completion of full-size machine design and verification, has launched a comprehensive engineering design and prototype manufacture, prototype (ws-15) in the experience of dozens of large-scale inspection after April 16, 2009, gas turbine in China Institute of ground test stand and test the first time in a successful ignition. CJ-2000 prototype (ws15) was for decades the development of China's success.

CJ2000's prototype (ws15) engine cycle parameters are as follows:
Thrust-Weight Ratio 9 an
Ducted more than 0.35 ~ 0.4
Afterburner thrust about 16500kg
Afterburning耗油率≯ 1.85kg/kg h
≯ 10500kg thrust the state's largest
耗油率the largest state ≯ 0.75kg/kg h
The total air flow ≯ 130kg / S
Pressurized to 28 or so total
Temperature before the turbine (the ground) 1800k around
Afterburner temperature (ground) 2050k around

9:1 T:W ration is impressive, GE F-404 also achive 9.5,while F-414 a 9.7,while F-119 is even fantastic 11 T:W ratio.

latenlazy · Apr 21, 2009

I thought the F-119 had a 9:1 T:W ratio? At least that's what wiki says...

Chinese Engine Development

Quickie

Colonel

Deino

Lieutenant General

Attachments

crobato

Colonel

tphuang

Lieutenant General

Deino

Lieutenant General

Lion

Senior Member

challenge

Banned Idiot

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

challenge

Banned Idiot

latenlazy

Brigadier