Chinese Engine Development

plawolf said:

It's not an issue with ability, but need.

What is the incentive in CAC messing around with AL31Fs when they had hundreds of brand new AL31FN's with greater thurst and probably many other tailor-made-for-the-J10 modifications on order awaiting delivery?

Reworking AL31Fs into FNs makes even less sense when you consider the fact that Russia effectively embargoed AL31F exports to China after China cancelled the remaining hundred odd Su27 kits after they deemed the J11B to be better.

If China was to think about changing gearbox positions on the AL31s, it should have been to turn FNs into Fs to use on their existing Flanker airframes.

But the time and resources needed to do that would have been far better spent on expanding production of WS10As. Even China's resources are not infinite and needs careful management to get the best results and avoid unnecesary waste.

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Yes. I would agree with this one or the reasoning. It is plausible.

Yes. Now that China has already order and commission Salyut to manufacture a AL31F with its gearbox already located at the bottom as per requirement and specification, why not just utilized them to the end instead of modififying more standard AL31F into FN variant like they probably did at the beginning of the program.

Quickie said:

Obviously, there are 2 variants of the WS-10A engine to cater to the different gearbox position of the J-10s and J-11s. i.e. One variant of WS-10A corresponding to AL-31F and another variant to AL-31FN. The only question here is the naming convention since some reports are still calling the engine on the J-10s as WS-10A even though it has a different gearbox position than the WS-10A of the J-11s.

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Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

But the WS10A is really indeed a different engine altoghter from the AL31F or its variant.

Micron, respect is indeed earned and not demanded, and I can assure you that you did not earn any respect by starting your rant with a snide comment like "not many folks have lateral thinking..." toward a poster who HAS earned most of our respect like Deino. And no, neither Deino nor tphuang need me to defend them, I do so because they've earned my respect.

As for your theory, I don't think it's implausible at all. True, there's no corroborating info, but there often aren't any when it comes to the PLA. Your contribution isn't detrimental to this board, just your attitude.

@Micron


To admit I don't know what to say !?? I indeed admire Your "way of thinking" off-side the usual boxes, but there are two things annoying me ...


1. not everything that is off to the established or mainstream meaning is correct, only due to missing proofs for the contrary. I actually don't know - maybe I should need to ask a Russian - if it is possible to convert an AL-31F into an FN or vice versa, but since there is not a single report on this theory but only Your post, it does not need to be true. Even more I think it up to You to show us proofs that Your theory could be correct ... not our task to show You the contrary.

As such for us here You are so far nothing more than a newbie … someone who shares our interest but overall a clean sheet of paper. And now You come with a new – admitted interesting – theory but after only a few posts of discussing and sharing arguments You begin to bash around, You offend other well-respected members, You call them stupid or ignorant only since they don’t follow Your theory … a theory that is nothing more than a theory: You showed us no proof, no source, no report not even a hint -… all You gave us were a wiki-link (!???!), images of F vs. FN – similar as I did – and a wild theory that contradicts all we know in common sense to established engine technology.


So why not argue ? Why does the USAF do not rework the F100’s used in the F-16 to fit them to the F-15 or vice versa, why was the F-14 not able to use an F110 used in an F-16 ?? There are certain reasons since an engine is a highly specialized item often optimized on the airflow of a certain aircraft. Again that does not mean it is impossible … but is it that easy that it makes operational sense or logical ??


And that's the second issue ... the way You post, Your "altitude":


2. It might indeed sound arrogant if such oldies like tphuang, me or several others ask You to show some more respect to be polite or even to trust the "big shrimps" (not that I am one). To lean to know who's reliable and not, who has a knowing and understanding of the PLA-matters or in aeronautics and who not is a long and sometimes arduous process. I'm sure all You would ask will tell You that this was a sometimes frustrating and long, long process … and I’m sure all here who take this hobby seriously will confirm, this process has not ended.


Therefore it is indeed surprising that You come up with a strange idea and right after the first few comments that do not hail this theory as a fact but politely ask for proof, You switch into the offensive modus, get personnel and rude.


As such I really do not know what to say … concerning Your theory I will wait for any confirmation that it is at least possible before I will think about it again, but that’s Your duty, not mine and concerning the way You post I hope You consider what others told You …


Deino

Courtesy of Vincent from CDF another progress in manufacturing of single crystal turbine blade.

CAST solved the issue of producing high melting point alloy in vacuums and single crystal hollow turbine blades

IMR tests shown the quality of the turbine blades matches the European and American standards

The turbine blades shown covers aerial engines both in service and in research.



2016-04-12 23:11:11 来源：中国证券网 作者：李惠

中国证券网讯 4月12日，炼石有色全资子公司成都航宇（CAST）在成都举行了产品发布会，宣告攻克了高温合金真空冶炼和单晶空心叶片的铸造难关。

　　如果说航空发动机是航空工业的心脏，高温叶片则是发动机的关键动部件。随着航机的升级换代，叶片也由过去的等轴晶叶片、定向晶叶片向技术性能更为先进的单晶空心叶片升级。

　 　炼石有色拥有全球储量7%的铼资源优势，并借助国家“千人计划”，从2012年起先后引进了12位海外顶尖专家，公司整合两大优势投资8亿元、耗时三 年，成功研制出单晶空心叶片。成都航宇主营业务为高温合金研发、生产及销售，航空发动机、工业燃气轮机涡轮叶片的生产、销售及维修服务。

　　炼石有色负责人在发布会上表示，将在成都双流打造一个贯穿核心材料关键部件、航空发动机、无人机整机设计制造于一体的产业集群。

　　发布会上，国际权威第三方检测机构美国麦锡金属处理技术服务有限公司（IMR）出具的检测报告证明：送检的单晶叶片在高温拉伸性能、高温持久性能、宏观金相、显微组织等方面的测试结果均符合欧美标准。

　　炼石有色单晶空心叶片的一次合格率已达国际航空工业领先水准，是国内首家单晶叶片成品率达到量产水平的企业。此次展示的两款高温合金产品、多款航空发动机叶片和燃气轮机叶片，基本覆盖了目前国内在役、在研机型。（李惠）

2016-04-12 23:11:11 Source: China Securities Author: Li Hui

China Securities Network News April 12, Lian colored stone wholly owned subsidiary of Chengdu Aerospace (CAST) held a product launch in Chengdu, declared overcome the vacuum melting superalloys and single crystal hollow blades casting difficulties.

If the aviation engine is the heart of the aviation industry, high-temperature engine blade is the key to moving parts. With the upgrading of aircraft, the blades from the past equi axes blades, the crystal orientation of the blades upgrade to more advanced technical performance for Single Crystal Blades.

Lian colored stone(company name) has 7% of the global reserves of rhenium resources, and with the country "thousands of plans", from 2012, has introduced the top 12 overseas experts, the company integrated two major advantages to invest 800 million yuan, took three years, the successful production of single-crystal hollow blades. Chengdu Aerospace main business of high-temperature alloy development, production and sales of aircraft engines, industrial gas turbines turbine blade production, sales and maintenance services.

Lianshi colored person in charge at the press conference said it would build a key component of the core material throughout the Chengdu Shuangliu, aircraft engines, machine design and manufacture of unmanned aerial vehicles in one of the industry cluster.

The international authoritative third-party testing agency of the US tin metal processing Services Limited (IMR) test report issued proof: inspection of single crystal blades in high-temperature tensile properties, creep rupture performance, macro-metallographic microstructure the test results and other aspects of the organization are in line with European standards.

Lian colored stone Single Crystal Blades of a passing rate has reached a leading international aviation industry standards, is the first single crystal blades yield reached the level of mass production enterprises. The demonstration of the two high-temperature alloy products, a variety of aviation gas turbine engine blades and vanes, covering the current domestic in service, in the research model. (Vicky)
Google Translate for Business:

Hendrik_2000 said:

Courtesy of Vincent from CDF another progress in manufacturing of single crystal turbine blade.

CAST solved the issue of producing high melting point alloy in vacuums and single crystal hollow turbine blades

IMR tests shown the quality of the turbine blades matches the European and American standards

The turbine blades shown covers aerial engines both in service and in research.

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Click to expand...

The proof, as they say, is in the pudding; so if the article is accurate on single crystal blades matching US and EU performance standards, how long before we see Chinese engines approaching or matching Western engines?

Blackstone said:

The proof, as they say, is in the pudding; so if the article is accurate on single crystal blades matching US and EU performance standards, how long before we see Chinese engines approaching or matching Western engines?

Click to expand...

Like they say Rome is NOT BUILD in a day. Aeroengine is the crown achievement of any industrial state.You can count by single hand the number of country that can build good engine. China was 80 yr behind and subject to technological embargo. So she has to reinvent every manufacturing process by herself.

I understand she can now manufacture single crystal blade but the rejection rate is high, resulting in high cost and reduce production rate. Technology is not one big leap but small increment improvement. First stage turbine blade is the bottle neck

So this is another steps in the long march of catching up with the US and UK.

@ Deino

Although I do not have much time today, I will respond to your contentious post.


Tsk! Tsk! You should have just sticks on the subject that we are debating instead of adding all the rest of the irrelevant stuff i.e. your annoyance, etc. which has truly nothing to do with the points in discussion.

1. I am not here to socialize and neither should you. This is certainly not the right forum for it either.

2. Based on what you wrote, I am of an opinion, it is not my attitude that troubles you but more of a case of “dent in your pride”. You could never imagine what you wrote will be or can be ever challenged.

3. You considered me as a newbie because of my decision to join this forum late. So is Huitong also considered as a newbie because of his length of time in here? IMO he is one of the more respectable bloggers when it comes to Chinese Military Hardware.

4. Next in this part of the world and Asia, based on of teaching of Confucius as well as traditional culture, the so-called respect which I have never demand for rightfully belongs to folks like me and not many of you.

5. When I first started walking on this earth as an adult, many of you are wandering around naked or still in your cloth diapers. For me, this is totally irrelevant although respect was very rudely demanded from me by your members of your blind fan club. I personally prefer to focus of the subject that I am debating on rather than all this unwelcome distraction.

6. If you take offense of my sarcasms because some of your member of fan club got told of. It was their own doing in the first place because came unprepared with little or no knowledge of the subject and penned nonsensical and irrelevant stuff like: they demand for respect although it does not concern them. It is annoying and in most cases, I just ignore them.


Back to the differing point of our debate:

I have opined that the first engine for the J-10 fighter was in fact a modified AL31F with its gearbox relocated by the Chinese Aviation engineers. For the production model China submitted their requirement and specification based on this modification to Russian Manufacturer Salyut.

You openly disagree calling mine a theory without any credible source and opined since this is the first time, you ever heard of it, it never happened and even claimed that AL31FN is a completely different engine from AL31F. Next question: Do you truly understand how Chinese minds tick?

AL31F and AL31FN are not theory but REAL and FINISHED product.

This is where my disappointment with you begins. Your lack of understanding on the subject of powerplant for the J10 and J11, the AL31F and its different variants although you do pride yourself as an expert in this subject citing case of articles you posted.

You also opined that different made engines are not switchable in a single aircraft and I prove to you wrong citing the two different WS10A and AL31FN that powered J10 or WS10A and AL31F.

Russia did offer Iran to re-engine the Grumman F14 with their stock AL31F turbofan.

My apology I did not print the reply in blue on purpose. It just turned on itself automatically.

OK I really have to leave now.