Chinese Engine Development

Micron · Apr 10, 2016

Deino said:
Sorry, but what sounds fine in theory is simply not in return correct.
I have to admit that I have no official source, but from all we know, Saturn was asked to develop especially for the J-10 a new version .... As such the FN was especially designed as a J-10-tailored version for CAC. In the same way You can't fit a GE F110 used in the F-14B to a F-15 or F-15S it's also here: You can't fit a FN into a Flanker or a F into a J-10.

I am hardly surprised, not many folks have lateral thinking or think outside of the box. Although I must expressed my disappointment with you on this particular case. I always imagine you to be an adept when it comes to China War Flying Machines then how could you missed all these out. Any experienced China Military Watchers who are figuring out the final puzzle will work on the available data and info to perform some wild guesswork, extrapolate some numbers, etc instead of blindly resorting to the usual stereotype… Where is your source?

So in other words if no reliable or official source is available hence the J-10 never existed. We don’t bother ourselves with useless sources anyway because we know they are all rumors, hearsays many based on alleged insider information. FYI China never officially confirmed the presence of its J-10 projects for many years and had even denied its existence until many years later. CW just follow their instincts based on the events and their dates made available.

EXAMPLE:

1. The first prototype J-10 01 was rolled out in November 1997 and first flown on 23 March 1998 in a twenty-minute flight. So what engine did China fitted to this aircraft. WS-10A was not ready yet.

2. According to Salyut website, AL-31FN project only commenced only in 2002.

3. Wiki reads: The AL-31FN is based in the AL-31F which is designed for a twin engine aircraft such as SU-27 and to fit the smaller J10 the engine parts have been moved and re-designed to fit the smaller engine bay in the J-10. Meaning engine may rotate 180% around so that the gearbox is below with mounting realigned, etc etc.

4. Although the first picture of the J-10 appeared in the internet in 2005, the plane has flown much earlier on.

5. China signed an order for AL-31FN in 2005 which is strictly based on PLAAF requirement. Salyut do not have another customer for the AL-31FN.

6. All this indicated to us that China aviation engineers had most probably modified spare AL31F engine supplied around with the SU-27 to fit the smaller engine bay of the J-10 then later submit their requirement and specification to the manufacturer.

It won't be easy to prove me wrong or you right in this case.

Yes. Mine may be a theory but it is a plausible one. The accepted theory is filled with many unexplanable holes as well.

Micron · Apr 10, 2016

Can a J-10 fly upside down? It certainly can then at that stage the gearbox is right at the top.

Having observed the pictures of both the AL-31F and AL-31FN with the gearbox provided above, they are basically tube-shaped in configuration.

IMO there should not be any major problem even the engine is rotate 180 degree. Or perhaps it may interesting if some real expert cares to enlighten us on this?

Micron · Apr 11, 2016

Deino said:
The fact alone that China is able to overhaul its engines independently and reassemble them does not mean they switch or even that it is possible to rebuild a F as an FN and vice versa.

By the way it's indeed the first time I've heard this ... and I've already heard a lot ...

LOL The last time the Chinese maintenance engineers were merely maintaining the CFM-56 turbofan engines and it seems they created the core-technology of the WS-10A based on that.

Your argument is flawed as China has demonstrate their ability to switch between the WS-10A engine and the AL-31F or WS-31FN.

Confusing as it may be even the Indian has re-engined their LCA with GE F404 and at one stage were considering the Dassault M88-2 engine. Now they are talking about the more powerful GE F414 engine.

Difficult but not IMPOSSIBLE. J10 or J11 are testimonials to this interchangeability.

There are many things you will be begining to hear about soon if you have maintained an open-mind about learning.

LOL I have never stop hearing and I will never have enough in my lifetime.

SinoSoldier · Apr 11, 2016

Micron said:
LOL The last time the Chinese maintenance engineers were merely maintaining the CFM-56 turbofan engines and it seems they created the core-technology of the WS-10A based on that.

Your argument is flawed as China has demonstrate their ability to switch between the WS-10A engine and the AL-31F or WS-31FN.

Confusing as it may be even the Indian has re-engined their LCA with GE F404 and at one stage were considering the Dassault M88-2 engine. Now they are talking about the more powerful GE F414 engine.

Difficult but not IMPOSSIBLE. J10 or J11 are testimonials to this interchangeability.

There are many things you will be begining to hear about soon if you have maintained an open-mind about learning.

LOL I have never stop hearing and I will never have enough in my lifetime.

Sorry, but do we have photo evidence that the F variant of the Al-31 could be fitted onto a J-10?

Also, please show the other members some respect.

plawolf · Apr 11, 2016

It's not an issue with ability, but need.

What is the incentive in CAC messing around with AL31Fs when they had hundreds of brand new AL31FN's with greater thurst and probably many other tailor-made-for-the-J10 modifications on order awaiting delivery?

Reworking AL31Fs into FNs makes even less sense when you consider the fact that Russia effectively embargoed AL31F exports to China after China cancelled the remaining hundred odd Su27 kits after they deemed the J11B to be better.

If China was to think about changing gearbox positions on the AL31s, it should have been to turn FNs into Fs to use on their existing Flanker airframes.

But the time and resources needed to do that would have been far better spent on expanding production of WS10As. Even China's resources are not infinite and needs careful management to get the best results and avoid unnecesary waste.

Quickie · Apr 11, 2016

Micron said:
......China has demonstrate their ability to switch between the WS-10A engine and the AL-31F or WS-31FN.

Obviously, there are 2 variants of the WS-10A engine to cater to the different gearbox position of the J-10s and J-11s. i.e. One variant of WS-10A corresponding to AL-31F and another variant to AL-31FN. The only question here is the naming convention since some reports are still calling the engine on the J-10s as WS-10A even though it has a different gearbox position than the WS-10A of the J-11s.

tphuang · Apr 12, 2016

Micron said:
I am hardly surprised, not many folks have lateral thinking or think outside of the box. Although I must expressed my disappointment with you on this particular case. I always imagine you to be an adept when it comes to China War Flying Machines then how could you missed all these out. Any experienced China Military Watchers who are figuring out the final puzzle will work on the available data and info to perform some wild guesswork, extrapolate some numbers, etc instead of blindly resorting to the usual stereotype… Where is your source?

So in other words if no reliable or official source is available hence the J-10 never existed. We don’t bother ourselves with useless sources anyway because we know they are all rumors, hearsays many based on alleged insider information. FYI China never officially confirmed the presence of its J-10 projects for many years and had even denied its existence until many years later. CW just follow their instincts based on the events and their dates made available.

EXAMPLE:

1. The first prototype J-10 01 was rolled out in November 1997 and first flown on 23 March 1998 in a twenty-minute flight. So what engine did China fitted to this aircraft. WS-10A was not ready yet.

2. According to Salyut website, AL-31FN project only commenced only in 2002.

3. Wiki reads: The AL-31FN is based in the AL-31F which is designed for a twin engine aircraft such as SU-27 and to fit the smaller J10 the engine parts have been moved and re-designed to fit the smaller engine bay in the J-10. Meaning engine may rotate 180% around so that the gearbox is below with mounting realigned, etc etc.

4. Although the first picture of the J-10 appeared in the internet in 2005, the plane has flown much earlier on.

5. China signed an order for AL-31FN in 2005 which is strictly based on PLAAF requirement. Salyut do not have another customer for the AL-31FN.

6. All this indicated to us that China aviation engineers had most probably modified spare AL31F engine supplied around with the SU-27 to fit the smaller engine bay of the J-10 then later submit their requirement and specification to the manufacturer.

It won't be easy to prove me wrong or you right in this case.

Yes. Mine may be a theory but it is a plausible one. The accepted theory is filled with many unexplanable holes as well.

We are looking for people to actually use real evidence rather than just come up with shot in the dark kind of theories.

I don't know what you think the accepted theory is, but there is plenty of people on Chinese bbs that corroborate with stuff I've posted.

tidalwave · Apr 12, 2016

Now the Engine has been solved. (WS10 series). China's track record ; it's always Plane ahead of the Engine.
Isn't time to unveil the next Stealth Bomber?(4x WS10s)

Micron · Apr 12, 2016

tphuang said:
We are looking for people to actually use real evidence rather than just come up with shot in the dark kind of theories.

I don't know what you think the accepted theory is, but there is plenty of people on Chinese bbs that corroborate with stuff I've posted.

Then you are wasting your time and talent in here. A forum is generally a platform where members share, exchange and argue about ideas and theories - No matter how wayward they may sound to others... esp. to you

Example: What real evidences have you been able to present apart from the belated ones. Why not also posts discussions in Chinese bbs that contradicted your opinion altogether?

Are you saying we should live in denial and accepted the status quo realm until your so-called REAL EVIDENCE presents itself e.g. we just learn the truth about China secret rocketry program as presented by China themselves. It came 40 years too late and the father of China's rocketry has already passes on.

Maybe you have decide as a moderator in here you will survive and live another 50~60 years.

It is arrogant and improper for you to use words like, "we are looking for people"... for heaven sake this is not a job or talent seeking agency or jobstreet otherwise you yourself may be lining up to seek an employment with me, maybe.

The last thing this forum needed is an interfering and perfidious moderator. Why don't you just relax and adopt a non interventionist attitude like the rest instead of resorting to an annoying schizophrenic approach that embarrass yourself in the process..

The last time what you did to me is something very unbecoming of a moderator. You delete my response to my opponent while leaving his equally off topic comment intact up till today. That is why I regarded you as perfidious character.

IMO Deino is more than capable of defending himself in any debate and does not needed any intervention or assistance from you.

RESPECT is earned and not demanded upon.

Micron · Apr 12, 2016

SinoSoldier said:
Sorry, but do we have photo evidence that the F variant of the Al-31 could be fitted onto a

The photo evidence is right in front of you.

It really depends on what you truly understand about the AL31F or where variants like AL31FN or AL31FP derive from or the meaning behind those suffixes N or P and what they really means. Otherwise you should not be jump into the wagon and engage yourself in the friendly discussion between Deino and myself.

Your last comment is equally disrespectful as a matter of fact.

Chinese Engine Development

Micron

Junior Member

Micron

Junior Member

Micron

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SinoSoldier

Colonel

plawolf

Lieutenant General

Quickie

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tphuang

Lieutenant General

tidalwave

Senior Member

Micron

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Micron

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