Chinese Engine Development

TyroneG said:

There is a clear "Fear Factor" within China aerospace industry. Let just say there is lack of CONFIDENCE on its domestic engines now and the immediate future. The "body languages" says it all.

If they fear the plane would crashed, people die and lose of "face" then do a lot of UAVs with WS10B, WS13, WS15. They have to be widely used in order to test its limit and reliability.


Bottom line they have to get their confidence up. Right now, I see None.

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Confidence? You're talking about a country that just ate your (insert country______) lunch when Turkey decided to take HQ-9 as their chosen air defense system because it was the ONLY ONE that has a 100% kill ratio during testing. If the Chinese can do that with missiles can do that with jet engines as well, and the academia and professions around the world knows it too.

TyroneG said:

There is a clear "Fear Factor" within China aerospace industry. Let just say there is lack of CONFIDENCE on its domestic engines now and the immediate future. The "body languages" says it all.

If they fear the plane would crashed, people die and lose of "face" then do a lot of UAVs with WS10B, WS13, WS15. They have to be widely used in order to test its limit and reliability.


Bottom line they have to get their confidence up. Right now, I see None.

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I do not work in the Chinese aerospace industry so I cannot claim to know what their 'feelings' are toward their own domestic engines but if you say so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Either way the fact is that they have locally produced the WS10/15/20 etc and their derivatives shows their engineering capabilities that would be unheard of even a mere couple decades ago. Yes I realized the core design may be based on existing Russian or Western engines however building engines indigenously is an accompklishment even in itself because it's not like building Legos or even tanks or ships for that matter.

Like I said making advanced HBT is extremely difficult nevermind making one from scratch...I can guarantee you even if PW, GE etc gives 100% of a particular engine's blueprint to most companies they would still be UNABLE to produce one.

TyroneG said:

Yup, it's like driving a brand new shiny, latest looking Mercedez but with Yugo engine inside.

Right now, there are so many of the new plane projects going on, like J20, J31, Y20, J15, J10B they are all using Russian engines.
I think those projects are nothing more than getting funding from PLAN. They are fake projects to make a living.

China should put a stop to those. Put out the new motto "No Domestic Engine, No more new Plane"
I don't buy those domestic engines are work in progress type of propaganda. They have to show it they are ready.

That should crack down on those bogus,rampant fund raising oriented projects. You see all those different regions like chengdu, shenyang, xian, all trying carve out as large pierce cake from PLA funding. They want spin out their stuffs as quick as possible.
That's type of mindset I don't like. Very similar to what going on consumer market, People slapped some foreign components inside and put on a nice cover and ready to sell in market. The quicky way to make a few bucks.

This type of mentality is rampant in China, it's almost ingrained.

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Congratulations, that is your best troll post to date, I must say. Yes China should box the PLAAF for awhile until every last piece of kit is domestic. Let's apply that rule around the world right now and see how others fair hmm? SMH.

To re-iterate (and I know, it's not as if you actually care to reflect on this information) China has a proven production run of over 200 WS-10 variant engines to date. Modern combat aircraft have been for some time and continue to fly with these engines. That alone is a success for China's first major domestic turbofan engine. Full stop. As it would be for any other nation to achieve such.

Everything there after concerning engines for the J-10 series, J-20, J-31 etc etc is down to choice. Choice is nice, no?

China could have expanded the WS-10 lines and integrated the engines into additional airframes, at whatever cost. Instead they have chosen to continue with the current lines and supplemental purchase of Russian AL31 series.

From what I have gleaned and IMHO, I believe the WS-15 project to be going well and to be the future major combat turbofan of the PLAAF. I believe they will invest in significant production facilities for this engine and you will see it equip J-20 and "block" upgrades of the various Flanker units.

Holding off on development and testing of J-20 until WS-15 is IOC and equipped is just not wise. So too I think is waiting to produce the first batch of J-20. Flight training and the development of tactics can begin with an interim engine. Why wait? When the WS-15 is ready and installed the program can be modified to account for the increased performance.

But again, well done!

TyroneG said:

The problem would be China take a step forward then maybe couple steps backward.

They made progress on WS10A , but does that translate they can learn that experience and move forward?

That's where become questionable. If initial WS15(minus super cruise ) not ready in 2 yrs to fit into J20 then more likely they running in circle if not taking step backward. They already leaking the word out the J20 deployment will be based on Russian Engines a few yrs from now. That shows they have no confidence in their WS15 development. I am not talking now, but a few yrs from now

Then whatever they learned from WS10A is rather insignificant because it's untranslatable to something more advanced.

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Not sure you read the tea leaves right on this. Keep in mind that the original projections for the J-20's production was a good three to five years later than what we got precisely because most of us anticipated that the project's completion would hinge on the engine. It's not so much that the WS-15's development has been setback or delayed, but that the J-20's development was accelerated.

Simply believing that China should be able to translate the gain in knowledge from the WS-10A to the WS-15 in a short amount of time doesn't make it so. Development of new turbofan technologies always has a long lead time because of the rigorous testing procedures. Countries/Companies that seem to be able to turn out new and more powerful products when customers demand for it are able to not because they can advance the technology and science faster due to their experience and "confidence", but because they have had the time to build very deep product pipelines.

Wow just when I thought tyroneG couldn't make anymore posts to discredit his position more than he already has.

TyroneG said:

First batch is when it's operational, couple yrs from now.
Couple yrs from now, if its flying Russian engines, then its not something to be proud of.

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PLA's job is not to make one proud, but to have efficient equipment to defend China and to enforce China's interests. Thus, the priority of the PLA is to have a stealth fighter that can potentially win battles against the best in the world and ultimately give China a political advantage that can further its goals. In that sense, China wants to roll out capable fighters, such as the J-20, the J-10B, etc. as soon as possible to strengthen China's AF. If they can do with a domestic engine, perfect. If they cannot, they still have a machine that can help them achieve their primary goal, which is to win potential air combats.

In fact, those who are disappointed at the J-20 and J-10B simply because they don't have domestic engines are approaching this completely wrong. While these people accuse of China doing "face projects", it is actually these people who actually consider all the military development as face projects. Isn't that why they are disappointed? They don't care about the true capabilities of these weapon systems. The only thing they cares about is whether all parts are Chinese. As long as something on that plane is foreign, they get disappointed. They forget that the true goal of developing these weapons is to obtain fighting capabilities that match those of the best in the world.

It makes sense if PLAAF were to equip the first regiment of J-20s with Al-31 engines, simply because Al-31 has been tested with J-20 for many years already. Moreover, the first regiment will likely to be a training unit rather than a front line unit, use to facilitate operational flight tests, training of pilots and development of tactics. So, having those lesser capable J-20 will help PLAAF in getting the fully functional J-20 to operational capabilities sooner. That is a sensible thing to do and hardly a lack of confidence in WS-15.

vesicles said:

PLA's job is not to make one proud, but to have efficient equipment to defend China and to enforce China's interests. Thus, the priority of the PLA is to have a stealth fighter that can potentially win battles against the best in the world and ultimately give China a political advantage that can further its goals. In that sense, China wants to roll out capable fighters, such as the J-20, the J-10B, etc. as soon as possible to strengthen China's AF. If they can do with a domestic engine, perfect. If they cannot, they still have a machine that can help them achieve their primary goal, which is to win potential air combats.

In fact, those who are disappointed at the J-20 and J-10B simply because they don't have domestic engines are approaching this completely wrong. While these people accuse of China doing "face projects", it is actually these people who actually consider all the military development as face projects. Isn't that why they are disappointed? They don't care about the true capabilities of these weapon systems. The only thing they cares about is whether all parts are Chinese. As long as something on that plane is foreign, they get disappointed. They forget that the true goal of developing these weapons is to obtain fighting capabilities that match those of the best in the world.

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That is exactly right, don't think any-one in the states was ever concerned about where their ejection seat was made, ONLY THAT IT WORKED!

TyroneG said:

There is a clear "Fear Factor" within China aerospace industry. Let just say there is lack of CONFIDENCE on its domestic engines now and the immediate future. The "body languages" says it all.

If they fear the plane would crashed, people die and lose of "face" then do a lot of UAVs with WS10B, WS13, WS15. They have to be widely used in order to test its limit and reliability.


Bottom line they have to get their confidence up. Right now, I see None.

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Total and utter bullshxt... whole load of it.

lack of confidence in its domestic engines and yet place these engines in frontline heavy fighters. Either the Chinese are damn stupid or the person who post that sentence are nothing but troll trying to discredit the Chinese aerospace industry.

TyroneG said:

First batch is when it's operational, couple yrs from now.
Couple yrs from now, if its flying Russian engines, then its not something to be proud of.

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Childish assumption.

One had to ask, how many nations in this world at the moment had the capability to design and build their domestic engines at present days? And how is the Chinese flying with Russian engines nothing to be proud of?

Plus so what if the Chinese aircraft that is flying Russian engines anything to ashame of if the domestic engines (WS-15) is not yet ready? Seriously...