Chinese Engine Development

MiG-29 said:

and what do you think the russian teach for free?
specially the current Russian philosophy is money money money, you want to learn you have to pay, and to learn you have to ask Putin and his defense minister use logic do not use simple statements

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Indeed, the current Russian philosophy is money money money. The first money is just business. The second money replaced quality, with multiple instances of Russian equipments being returned because of poor quality. The third money replaced trust, as Russia often makes unilateral price hike despite having agreements spelled out in various contracts. China stopped ordering new IL-76 and turned focus to Y-20 due to the latter reason.

So, you cited one important reason why China ceased making purchases of new equipments from Russia in recent years. This precise reason opposes rather than supports your claim that Chinese were in Russia to buy new engines.

tphuang said:

Please point out the Chinese website. Consdering that you have no experience in dealing with Chinese websites, I don't think you can actually exercise good judgement on which is valid and which is not.

Why would they buy engines for an aircraft that's not close to production yet? They don't need to make special visits to Salyut to purchase 2 or 4 99M engines for building a couple of prototypes.

It's pretty well know that China put fundings into 99M project and that J-10B is going to use that at least in the beginning.

And it's also pretty common after you sign contract for something, you go there to see the production of the thing you already purchased.

If they are really negotiating, they will do that later in a separate place with the relevant people. When you go to a plant, you are no there to negotiate.

Kanwa is a not a great source, but you can pretty much see how long the negotiation process is between China and Russia on every single deal that they sign from reading Kanwa articles.

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Let us divide this in two instances.

First the Russian official reports only says cooperation in aeroengines and they do not mention they are buying AL-31s or any other engine they just mention Xu agreed to continue this cooperation.

What engine they are buying is just a guess.

You are guessing, your credibility in that regard is the same as the Chinese website if you consider they are guessing too or less if they have a source that you might not have.
But okay let us imagine the Chinese website is not official and it does not confirm any engine.


But okay let us see a few exampless of aircraft that used foreign engines at least in their development one is Rafale, that got F404 other J-10.

I want to ask you why Xu will go to Salut if in Zhuhai they signed a contract a year ago?

Other theory is just a visit, to say hello to the Russian workers or the Russians to boast to the Chinese colleages about how clean are their factories come on that is just a mere theory to avoid what is a more logical reason.


Xu went to Russia to deal something, now in order to get engines like Al-31F M1 or Al-31F M2 high level talks are needed and Xu went with Sergey Shoigu.

Do i think he went to just inspect the factory? no i do not, that is Shoigu`s job or Putin`s job.
Do i think Masalov made a speech to impress Xu and his entourage? no i do not.
He is trying to imply they are in talks to do a joint venture of new engines or China might ask Russia some help in their current engines.

Now the website of Salut is not going to say what they really talked, not at least in details, they are just giving a hint, they are ambiguous.

Do i think China could have asked Russia`s help for WS-15? i think it is possible since Russia already is flying 5 T-50s some which have already tested Supercruise and even Su-35s that have done the same.

If Russia is reluctant to help then perhaps buying their engines is the only way, Russia is already building T-30 engine, the final prototype for T-50 and it will be completed in 2014 , so to be honest i think Russia is ahead in engine design, specially since Russia flies better engines on Il-476 and Su-35 than its Chinese counterparts


NPO Saturn has started the preparation of a new engine intended for T-50 advanced fighter (PAK FA) for bench testing. It was stated by Evgeny Marchukov, General Designer-Director of A. Lyulka Scientific-and-Technical Center, forming part of NPO Saturn. The testing of the engine will be started in 2014, Lenta.ru reports.

There is little information about the new engine of T-50. According to preliminary facts, the engine will have increased thrust and fuel efficiency as compared to AL-41F1. Allegedly, the powerplant will have a thrust of about 107 kN in cruise mode and 176 kN in full afterburner mode.

The visit does not imply certainty of a new purchase of engines, and linking it to assumed issues with progress in the J-20 / WS-15 programs is reading into things a bit far, no?

My take is that China is stretched thin with WS-10 engine production to fill the multiple Flanker variants. I don't think China is interested in further expanding the WS-10 production lines but would rather invest in WS-15 when available, en mass.

If that is the case, China will likely sign another large contract for engines to power the new J-10B units expected to come online in 2014 (if it has not already done so).

I also think China wants pilots in the air practising BVR engagement and counters using AESA radar sets and J-10B is the best way to make this happen quickly. Lessons learned in tactics and technology will allow for update to the J-20 & J-31 systems prior to IOC.

Just my thoughts on the possible larger picture. I don't see any connection with J-20 or WS-15 though.

Cheers,
Zool

Engineer said:

So, did Russian buy any JF-17 as a result of the visit? No. Likewise Chinese visit does not automatically translates to an interest to buy something. So, certain individuals are making a big thing out of nothing from a simple tourist visit.

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Stop playing dumb . You know very well that Russians were not there to buy , they have gone there to see if they could sell something to Pakistan . And as Pakistanis started to brag after that how they going to produce up to 200 JF-17 , some deal may have been reached regarding the engines for said aircraft .

And now you going to say how do I know that Chinese were not selling something to Russians , instead of buying from them . Well , even that could happen in few years , but for now I don't know any military product that Russia would want to buy from China (and maybe I'm wrong) .

thunderchief said:

Stop playing dumb . You know very well that Russians were not there to buy , they have gone there to see if they could sell something to Pakistan . And as Pakistanis started to brag after that how they going to produce up to 200 JF-17 , some deal may have been reached regarding the engines for said aircraft .

And now you going to say how do I know that Chinese were not selling something to Russians , instead of buying from them . Well , even that could happen in few years , but for now I don't know any military product that Russia would want to buy from China (and maybe I'm wrong) .

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The evidence so far is only circumstantial. Not that the Chinese aren't buying; the visit could be part of the purchasing trip. But it is common for the makers to arrange viewing to interest potential buyers, as in advertising.

MiG-29 said:

Let us divide this in two instances.

First the Russian official reports only says cooperation in aeroengines and they do not mention they are buying AL-31s or any other engine they just mention Xu agreed to continue this cooperation.

What engine they are buying is just a guess.

You are guessing, your credibility in that regard is the same as the Chinese website if you consider they are guessing too or less if they have a source that you might not have.
But okay let us imagine the Chinese website is not official and it does not confirm any engine.

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com'on you can't one day respect what I say and then another day say my credibility is the same as these annoymous Chinese website that you talk about. Anyone whose followed Chinese sources for any amount of time can tell you which is bad.

But okay let us see a few exampless of aircraft that used foreign engines at least in their development one is Rafale, that got F404 other J-10.

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what does this have to do anything?

I want to ask you why Xu will go to Salut if in Zhuhai they signed a contract a year ago?

Other theory is just a visit, to say hello to the Russian workers or the Russians to boast to the Chinese colleages about how clean are their factories come on that is just a mere theory to avoid what is a more logical reason.

Xu went to Russia to deal something, now in order to get engines like Al-31F M1 or Al-31F M2 high level talks are needed and Xu went with Sergey Shoigu.

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so basically after talking around the ciricle, you are agreeing with me. In order to buy engines, you go talk to Shoigu (or ivanov back in the days) rather than visit the factory floor.

Do i think he went to just inspect the factory? no i do not, that is Shoigu`s job or Putin`s job.

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it's very common to do this. Whenever foreign leaders visit a country, they go visit factories that they have interest in. I don't understand why I need to explain this? This is so common
as an example,

in 2006, when Hujintao visited America, he went to the Boeing factory because China uses, ordered Boeing planes and might buy more. That's what you do. China does a lot of business with Salyut, why would officials not visit there?

Do i think Masalov made a speech to impress Xu and his entourage? no i do not.
He is trying to imply they are in talks to do a joint venture of new engines or China might ask Russia some help in their current engines.

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read my quotes, did I say anywhere that China will not pursue new engine projects with Salyut?

Now the website of Salut is not going to say what they really talked, not at least in details, they are just giving a hint, they are ambiguous.

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That's because the negotiation goes on at a much higher level. You don't negotiate at the plant. You obviously have no idea how defense deals are signed between China and Russia.

Do i think China could have asked Russia`s help for WS-15? i think it is possible since Russia already is flying 5 T-50s some which have already tested Supercruise and even Su-35s that have done the same.

If Russia is reluctant to help then perhaps buying their engines is the only way, Russia is already building T-30 engine, the final prototype for T-50 and it will be completed in 2014 , so to be honest i think Russia is ahead in engine design, specially since Russia flies better engines on Il-476 and Su-35 than its Chinese counterparts

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Again, why would they order engines for an aircraft that's not close to be in production?
If they put in an order or negotiating for one, it would be for J-10B, which is what everyone has been saying.
And it still doesn't change the fact that you don't need to go to the factory to negotiate. You negotiate with the higher ups.

NPO Saturn has started the preparation of a new engine intended for T-50 advanced fighter (PAK FA) for bench testing. It was stated by Evgeny Marchukov, General Designer-Director of A. Lyulka Scientific-and-Technical Center, forming part of NPO Saturn. The testing of the engine will be started in 2014, Lenta.ru reports.

There is little information about the new engine of T-50. According to preliminary facts, the engine will have increased thrust and fuel efficiency as compared to AL-41F1. Allegedly, the powerplant will have a thrust of about 107 kN in cruise mode and 176 kN in full afterburner mode.

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Why are you posting completely irrelevant stuff?

tphuang said:

com'on you can't one day respect what I say and then another day say my credibility is the same as these annoymous Chinese website that you talk about. Anyone whose followed Chinese sources for any amount of time can tell you which is bad.


what does this have to do anything?

so basically after talking around the ciricle, you are agreeing with me. In order to buy engines, you go talk to Shoigu (or ivanov back in the days) rather than visit the factory floor.


it's very common to do this. Whenever foreign leaders visit a country, they go visit factories that they have interest in. I don't understand why I need to explain this? This is so common
as an example,

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

in 2006, when Hujintao visited America, he went to the Boeing factory because China uses, ordered Boeing planes and might buy more. That's what you do. China does a lot of business with Salyut, why would officials not visit there?


read my quotes, did I say anywhere that China will not pursue new engine projects with Salyut?


That's because the negotiation goes on at a much higher level. You don't negotiate at the plant. You obviously have no idea how defense deals are signed between China and Russia.


Again, why would they order engines for an aircraft that's not close to be in production?
If they put in an order or negotiating for one, it would be for J-10B, which is what everyone has been saying.
And it still doesn't change the fact that you don't need to go to the factory to negotiate. You negotiate with the higher ups.


Why are you posting completely irrelevant stuff?

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Please man with all due respect you are not logic

First Shoigu is a very high personality and Masalov too, he is the Director of Salut.

These two individuals are very high personalities one is the Russian minister of defense and the other the General director of Salut.


Now here is not important what every one thinks, but what the source says.

First i posted two articles one if the original official Salut source
This only says Masalov gave a speech during Xu`s visit to Salut highlighting the importance of collaboration in the building of Aeroengines between China and Russia.
Xu replies basically saying they will continue to do it.

The other source says they went Shopping for J-20 engines.

At airshows contracts are sign in 2013 MAKS was held, there is where the Chinese can buy anything Russia offers there including engines for jet fighters, the same happens during visits, here Salut does not report they signed a deal, just a visit by Xu to Salut.

Now about credibility, since you are guessing, your credibility is basically your opinion, you are not witness of what Masalov. Xu, Shoigu did talk, neither you are an insider at Salut.

You are just commenting and making a guess like i am.

Now the second source also claims things not written on Salut`s website, however i do not know if they wrote it as a guess or they have sources to claim they went to buy J-20 engines.

Now this second source you automatically claim it is unreliable, that is fine, from your perspective.
Does it mean is unreliable? i do not know but since it is not official it loses some credibility however i do not know what sources they have or if they are just guessing.


Now about 117 and Type 30 engine, they are not unrelated, why?

Russia has started to sell the 117S in Su-35 and Salut has AL-31-M2 which basically are for export since PAKFA flies 117 a much powerful version than those engines and next year they will get type 30 of 17 tonnes of thrust.

The question is is the Chinese website logic?

ask your self does China have an engine like 117S?
maybe, maybe not at least not available now on J-20s and much less in J-31 that seem highly underpowered.

Now i will answer you about Rafale, Rafale got the F404 in tests when they french did not have the M88 available.

Why J-20 can not follow that path?

I do not see any problem.

What about J-10 did not the Chinese use Al-31s when they could not supply a Chinese designed engine for J-10?
answer J-20 can follow the same path

thunderchief said:

You know very well that Russians were not there to buy , they have gone there to see if they could sell something to Pakistan . And as Pakistanis started to brag after that how they going to produce up to 200 JF-17 , some deal may have been reached regarding the engines for said aircraft .

And now you going to say how do I know that Chinese were not selling something to Russians , instead of buying from them . Well , even that could happen in few years , but for now I don't know any military product that Russia would want to buy from China (and maybe I'm wrong).

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So you agree that the Russians were not at Pakistan's plant to buy JF-17. The Russian's visit perfectly illustrates a visit does not automatically correlate with an interest to buy. Likewise, the Chinese visit is merely a tourist activity which does not translates to an interest. Any Chinese interest in pursuing a new project is merely some people's fantasy.

MiG-29 said:

First Shoigu is a very high personality and Masalov too, he is the Director of Salut.

These two individuals are very high personalities one is the Russian minister of defense and the other the General director of Salut.

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xu is also a bigwig, vice chairman of central military commission is equivalent to shoygu's position in russia. (xi jinping is chairman of the cmc) of course the russians would receive him with people of similar rank and status, anything else would be a diplomatic snub. this does not mean china wants russian engines for the j-20.

MiG-29 said:

First i posted two articles one if the original official Salut source
This only says Masalov gave a speech during Xu`s visit to Salut highlighting the importance of collaboration in the building of Aeroengines between China and Russia.
Xu replies basically saying they will continue to do it.

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yes, the obligatory niceties... china buys al-31s and will continue to do so, i don't see anything out of the ordinary

MiG-29 said:

Now the second source also claims things not written on Salut`s website, however i do not know if they wrote it as a guess or they have sources to claim they went to buy J-20 engines.

Now this second source you automatically claim it is unreliable, that is fine, from your perspective.
Does it mean is unreliable? i do not know but since it is not official it loses some credibility however i do not know what sources they have or if they are just guessing.

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you're not making a very convincing argument here my friend

MiG-29 said:

Russia has started to sell the 117S in Su-35 and Salut has AL-31-M2 which basically are for export since PAKFA flies 117 a much powerful version than those engines and next year they will get type 30 of 17 tonnes of thrust.

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sounds like you're the one trying to make some sales for saturn here

MiG-29 said:

ask your self does China have an engine like 117S?
maybe, maybe not at least not available now on J-20s and much less in J-31 that seem highly underpowered.

Now i will answer you about Rafale, Rafale got the F404 in tests when they french did not have the M88 available.

Why J-20 can not follow that path?

I do not see any problem.

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you don't see any problem but the chinese sure do.... and we see it on this thread!

the french and the americans are allies, they have no political contention. the russians and the chinese are not true allies, only from convenience. they have a geopolitical contention that prevents the kind of cooperation that the french and the americans have.

france has no pressing need to be self-sustainable in building turbofans apart from pride and the ability to offer something on the market. when push comes to shove they will don't have to worry about the americans trying to jerk them around on access to gear, they will never be political rivals.

china has a very pressing need to be self-sustainable in building turbofans because:

1. russia is a political rival and could not be relied upon to supply such integral military aviation components, especially in times of pressing need. the more russian engines china buys, the more leverage the russians have over the chinese.

2. china is the world's biggest market for everything, thus the ability to produce advanced indigenous turbofans would be a huge boon to the china's aviation industry while challenging the west's monopoly on commercial turbofans, also reducing the west's leverage on china.

3. pride is the third factor. it is widely known that china has lagged behind on turbofan technology, the induction of the j-20 with russian engines would not only look bad to people in china, but also encourage the west to continue to disregard the capabilities of chinese military industry.

MiG-29 said:

What about J-10 did not the Chinese use Al-31s when they could not supply a Chinese designed engine for J-10?
answer J-20 can follow the same path

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it can... but you can bet that they will try to avoid it if at all possible, and this recent news does not present any new evidence to suggest that anything has changed. in fact, that second unsourced article sounds rather like so many previous russian articles about china buying the su-35 that ended up fruitless.

so we know the russians really want to sell the chinese planes and engines, and we know that the chinese really don't want to keep buying russian engines. with this dynamic in mind, the only way to make sure that the chinese want russian engines is if such an announcement is made directly by members of the cmc, or if the chinese state media directly announces it; which has not happened.

MiG-29 said:

Please man with all due respect you are not logic

First Shoigu is a very high personality and Masalov too, he is the Director of Salut.

These two individuals are very high personalities one is the Russian minister of defense and the other the General director of Salut.

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LMAO! You are making a big deal out of something insignificant because you lack logic.

Masalov being there because he works there everyday. This is no different than why some low level workers are there. As for Russian minister of defense, he is in charge of defense and not export. In other words, his role there cannot be a negotiator. So, neither person being there supports your claim that the Chinese delegate were at Salut's plant to shop.

MiG-29 said:

Now here is not important what every one thinks, but what the source says.

First i posted two articles one if the original official Salut source
This only says Masalov gave a speech during Xu`s visit to Salut highlighting the importance of collaboration in the building of Aeroengines between China and Russia.
Xu replies basically saying they will continue to do it.

The other source says they went Shopping for J-20 engines.

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What you say is not important. What you think your sources say is not important. Looking at your sources, we can tell they have not said much to substantiate your claims.

Unlike your claim, the article from Salut used "cooperation" and not "collaboration". Moreover, the article did not say the Chinese were there to shop. Your are putting your own words into the article that are not there to begin with.

Your other source claimed that some Hong Kong based media reported on a myth about Chinese went shopping for J-20 engines. Again, no concrete evidence was presented to support the idea that Chinese were at the plant to shop. What's more, even though you kept referring to the Hong Kong based report, you have not provided any evidence on the existence of the specific report.

MiG-29 said:

At airshows contracts are sign in 2013 MAKS was held, there is where the Chinese can buy anything Russia offers there including engines for jet fighters, the same happens during visits, here Salut does not report they signed a deal, just a visit by Xu to Salut.

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LMAO! As your own statement spells it out clearly, MAKS is an airshow. This Chinese visit was not. Moreover MAKS is a public event whereas the Chinese visit was private. Nothing that can occur at MAKS is relevant for this visit.

MiG-29 said:

Now about credibility, since you are guessing, your credibility is basically your opinion, you are not witness of what Masalov. Xu, Shoigu did talk, neither you are an insider at Salut.

You are just commenting and making a guess like i am.

Now the second source also claims things not written on Salut`s website, however i do not know if they wrote it as a guess or they have sources to claim they went to buy J-20 engines.

Now this second source you automatically claim it is unreliable, that is fine, from your perspective.
Does it mean is unreliable? i do not know but since it is not official it loses some credibility however i do not know what sources they have or if they are just guessing.

Now about 117 and Type 30 engine, they are not unrelated, why?

Russia has started to sell the 117S in Su-35 and Salut has AL-31-M2 which basically are for export since PAKFA flies 117 a much powerful version than those engines and next year they will get type 30 of 17 tonnes of thrust.

The question is is the Chinese website logic?

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The Hong Kong based media is not credible, and the reason for that can be found in your own argument. When representatives of that Hong Kong media were not there to witness the visit, then any report about the visit from that media is just guess. You cannot use guess to substantiate your claims.

MiG-29 said:

ask your self does China have an engine like 117S?
maybe, maybe not at least not available now on J-20s and much less in J-31 that seem highly underpowered.
Now i will answer you about Rafale, Rafale got the F404 in tests when they french did not have the M88 available.

Why J-20 can not follow that path?

I do not see any problem.

What about J-10 did not the Chinese use Al-31s when they could not supply a Chinese designed engine for J-10?
answer J-20 can follow the same path

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J-20 is already using the AL-31 as an interm engine for tests. For the J-20 to fully meet design intentions, China must have access to F-119 class engines. The 117S is not a F-119 class engine. Even the Russians themselves admitted that Russian's true F-119 equivalent is still in development. It would be silly for China to substitute one type of underpowered engines with another, especially when China will have access to WS-15 in a few more years.

Regardless, the use of an interm engine has no relation whatsoever as to whether Chinese were at Salut's plant to shop. You kept going in circles but you cannot prove the Chinese delegation was shopping. It is that simple.