Chinese Engine Development

Currently 4 J11B Regiments are equipped with WS-10A

Dalian Base ex 30 Ftr Div
89 Air Brigade Pulandian

32 Ftr Div
Ex 57 Air Regiment Lianyungang

Urumqi Base ex 37 Ftr Div
111 Air Brigade Korla

8 Naval Air Division
22 Air Regiment Jialai

That's 96 aircraft or 192 engines, and a new Lot of J11B is going to have WS10 which means really 240 engines, it has to be in full scale production if almost 5 Regiments are equipped with the engine

Not to mention J10B, J16 and J15, is WS-10 reliable? Well time will tell, there hasnt been any crashes of J11B due to engines so I would guess its ok, but no doubt it can be improved

Only reason I would doubt its reliability is maybe because new J10A Lot didn't use WS-10 so something must be not quite right

Deino said:

What a - sorry to say - stupid argument !

Was the US GE F110 or PW F100 ever offered or proposed on the international market to compete with a Russian AL-31 ??? ... and since that was not the case is that proof for being a substandard powerplant ??

Both engines were simply tailor-made for the F-15/16 and as such were only sold in combination with these fighters the same way like the AL-31 was developed for the Flanker version. The fact that the WS-10 equips so far no export-Flanker is simply due to the fact that so far (and most likely never will do so) a Chinese J-11 competed with a Russian Su-27 on the international market. Otherwise the fact that since a few yeras only TH-powered J-11 were rolling off the production line at SAC should tell You all You need ...

Deino

Click to expand...

I'll refrain from treating you in kind.

WS-10x is substandard, compared to engines like F100-220/220E, F119, and its cousin the F135, due in part to poorer manufacturing capability and process controls, and the inability to sell them internationally is one of the results. Pakistan, for example, would love to have WS-10x for the JF-17, but China's factories can't supply them in sufficient quantities.

Centrist said:

]


I am fairly certain your timeline is a bit off.

Development allegedly began in 1987, though it may have began unofficially as early as 1980 after the WS-6 was canned.

The high pressure components were successfully tested in 1993

The first complete engine was finished in 1997 but was so far from production that the J-10 needed to switch to AL-31FN.

Rumor has it that in 1997 the WS-10 had technical malfunctions, including throwing compressor blades. These issues took 2 years to resolve.

In 2000 the WS-10 received certification for flight testing.

In 2004 a WS-10 aboard the J-11 testbed had a bearing failure that nearly took down the aircraft.

In 2005, WS-10 completed full life endurance testing.

WS-10 received design certification in 2006, not 2008.

J-11B production started around 2007. Rumor has it that the first J-11B's used WS-10 but were quickly grounded due to quality control issues. Production then restarted with AL-31F until Russia stopped shipping them.

WS-10 entered mass (or at least some level of) production in 2009 and we began to see our first J-11B's equipped.

There is little reason to doubt that the WS-10 isn't in mass production, but it has taken China an awful long time. Even today, there is no evidence that the engine is reliable enough for a single-engine fighter like the J-10.

Click to expand...

The engine development that started in parallel with the J-10 in 1987 was a turbojet, or so I read. The purchase of the Al-31FN was only made possible with the early 90s purchases of Al-31F equipped Su-27's. The paper I read also said that the turbojet had similar thrust to the Al-31 and was nearing completion but was cancelled in light of its turbojet status. I have no idea when the WS-10 began development but the one that began in 1987 was, I believe, a cancelled turbojet engine.

Blackstone said:

I'll refrain from treating you in kind.

WS-10x is substandard, compared to engines like F100-220/220E, F119, and its cousin the F135, due in part to poorer manufacturing capability and process controls, and the inability to sell them internationally is one of the results. Pakistan, for example, would love to have WS-10x for the JF-17, but China's factories can't supply them in sufficient quantities.

Click to expand...

Thank You so much since with this post You completely ruined anything what was left from Your credibility ...

We all know that the WS-10A is most likely not on par with the latest F100/110 models but if this is due to "poorer manufacturing capability and process controls" is again not proven but simply Your opinion or assumption. Both the F119 and 135 are even more out of reach since they are not comparable and even more the WS-10 was not designed to be comparable.
Regarding Your second point "the inability to sell them internationally" it even more shows Your ignorance or let me say Your inability or is it simply unwill (?) to argue.

Again You fail to answer or to respond to several other statements to this comment and even more tell me one fighter that could be powered by the TH which is not a Flanker - itself not on the agenda, since China don't sell them - or a J-10B, which again is not yet exported ??? As such it is a no-brainer's argument and the final nail to that coffin is "Pakistan, for example, would love to have WS-10x for the JF-17" !!!! ... what a joke !

That statement is as stupid as to say Germany would love to have the F135 for its Eurofighter !!!

Did You ever check the stuff You are writing ??? ... or at least did You ever check the diameter of the FC-1's RD-93 in comparison to the WS-10 ?!!

As such no need to discuss with You any more, when You not even notice when You make Your self a fool.

Deino

Blackstone said:

I'll refrain from treating you in kind.

WS-10x is substandard, compared to engines like F100-220/220E, F119, and its cousin the F135, due in part to poorer manufacturing capability and process controls, and the inability to sell them internationally is one of the results. Pakistan, for example, would love to have WS-10x for the JF-17, but China's factories can't supply them in sufficient quantities.

Click to expand...

WS-10 for a lightweight fighter like the JF-17 would be overkill in the EXTREME. Not to mention the required structural changes to the JF-17 which would essentially make it an entirely different aircraft. A jet with a single WS-10 would be in the class of the F-16, which China is going to provide to Pakistan in the form of the J-10. To remake the JF-17 to a WS-10 powered jet would be redundant, as its performance would be near identical to the J-10.

You're using the lack of exports as proof of the inferiority of the WS-10 family. There isn't a plane in operation that needs to use the WS-10 outside Chinese borders, why on earth should a country randomly buy the WS-10 for no reason? For museum display? In order for countries to need the WS-10, they must first have planes that use the WS-10, and no one does as of now.

Blackstone said:

I'll refrain from treating you in kind.

WS-10x is substandard, compared to engines like F100-220/220E, F119, and its cousin the F135, due in part to poorer manufacturing capability and process controls, and the inability to sell them internationally is one of the results.

Click to expand...

This argument of yours has already been shown to be invalid, since the F-119 engine not being sold internationally is a good example debunking your generalization. Repeating the same claim isn't going to magically turn it valid.

Blackstone said:

Pakistan, for example, would love to have WS-10x for the JF-17, but China's factories can't supply them in sufficient quantities.

Click to expand...

I have no doubt you have no proof that Pakistan ever asked for the WS-10 to equip JF-17 fighter. Pakistan Air Force wouldn't have made such an idiotic request in the first place. And for your information, JF-17 is not using F-100 or F-119 either. The aircraft is designed to use RD-93 engine right from the beginning, which is a simple explanation for why JF-17 isn't using other engines.

Blackstone said:

Ok kid, settle down, you need to disagree without being disagreeable.

Here's a link to a good read on Chinese engine development-

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

As you pointed out, the P&W F100 is old technology, but here's a new toy to play with:

Click to expand...

That article hardly talked about Chinese engine development. A good read on development would give a detailed list on what China has been accomplished, what is being worked on, and what is still missing. Aside from going off tangent on multiple occasions, the article is also very wordy to attempt to hide the lack of contents. If most of your knowledge on Chinese jet engine is based on this article, then you clearly have zero knowledge about the matter.

Blackstone said:

I'll refrain from treating you in kind.

WS-10x is substandard, compared to engines like F100-220/220E, F119, and its cousin the F135, due in part to poorer manufacturing capability and process controls, and the inability to sell them internationally is one of the results. Pakistan, for example, would love to have WS-10x for the JF-17, but China's factories can't supply them in sufficient quantities.

Click to expand...

You are making a fool of yourself. There are people here who know militaries of China as well as the world from the inside out. From what you have said, it is better for you to stay quiet and go back to read articles of this forum from day 1. If you do so, I believe, you will be a better expert than Andrew Erickson.

Blackstone said:

I'll refrain from treating you in kind.

WS-10x is substandard, compared to engines like F100-220/220E, F119, and its cousin the F135, due in part to poorer manufacturing capability and process controls, and the inability to sell them internationally is one of the results. Pakistan, for example, would love to have WS-10x for the JF-17, but China's factories can't supply them in sufficient quantities.

Click to expand...

You need to try harder. F119 is used only on F22, a far from mature/proven project, when/if they get it right, WS15, a design more advanced than F119, will likely be out.
F135, used only on F35 has even more uncertainties than F119/F22. So it's just a fantasy to say it's a successful product now.

F100-220/220E or other derivatives still have less thrust than WS10, newer WS10 like the B & H models will only pull further ahead.
As others have already said, associating WS10 to JF17 shows how clueless you are. How old are you really ?

Only that few countries can make a class of PF100 engines and China is one of them. Not too mention Taihang has a thrust ratio of 8:1 which is mention by its chief designer.