Chinese Engine Development

vesicles said:

It IS tightly controlled. Every such institute in China belongs to the CCP and the Chinese govn't!!! If the heads of these institutes still want a career, any career, they better follow orders from the top. They are NOT independent companies!!! The ONLY reason that J-20 doesn't have WS-10A is the leadership in Beijing does not allow it. I have no clue why they decided to do that, but, again, the ONLY reason that J-20 does not have WS-10A is because Beijing does not believe the two fit together just yet. The decision comes from the top. Neither SAC nor CAC can make such decision.

Small tricks like shifting blames are possible, but something as huge as withholding an engine to J-20 would not slide in any govn't, especially when the evidence of the maturity of the engine is so clear. How do you explain yourself if you are the head of SAC when Beijing questions why you have not sent the engine to Chengdu?

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LOL.. if by your theory. corruption will not exist in china. riots will not happen in china yearly. most riot started because mayor of the district abused power by illegal land grab and not carry out order according to top level. Same goes to aviation sector. CCP understand to allow certain anontomous power retain by them to have competition is essential. Clearly, you failed to understand SAC history. As I say, their history associate with founding of PRC. They are the most important and powerful military aviation company in AVIC. This cannot be say for chengdu , xi'an , hongdu and guizhou.

Why do u suddenly bring J-20 in? And how do you know the mystery engine with silver petal is not WS-10 variant? We have seen J-20 execute some difficult stunt. AL-31F clearly will be under powered to support that.

tphuang said:

Russia deems J-11B to be produced illegally, so it stopped selling AL-31Fs that could be used for it.



I will have to go home to dig this up. I think it was on kanwa interviews. It was also stated by numerous "big shrimps" on Chinese forums that have credibility. They have actually purchased a bunch of AL-31F engines from Russia recently, but it's all been used as replacements for the older flanker planes.

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I want facts and not yr opinion. Russia never deem J-15 or J-11b to be illegal until the extend of not supplying china with engines. Sukhoi is the one who claimed china own made flanker is illegal but not Russia federation. Mikoyan lobby hard for RD-93 engine to be ban from export to china but failed. Russian government allow RD-93 to be continue exported to china.

vesicles said:

Yes, but J-15/J-16 are not completely new systems. Many of their components have been tested extensively and very mature. On the other hand, J-20 is a completely new platform that is still undergoing initial testing. It would be a bad idea to add another variable to the already complicated equation.

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Clearly you failed to understand the danger of any initial flight test even be it modification or totally new plane. I doubt moderator will agree with you on this parts. Given china military track record of being very cautious, the fact they use WS-10A engines on that clearly tell us the healthy state and design of WS-10A.

Not here to debuke any claims or so-call analysis, but just to list some of my opinion on why J-10B and J-20 are not fitted with the WS-10A.

I am not really very knowledgeable in engine design and aircraft design for that matter... but coming from a background with smaller consumer electronic designs... I think that in any design, if the final product are not designed with the intention of some components, it is not easy to change in later stage. What I mean is... if the aircraft was not designed with a specific engine in mind, then it is not easy to change and adopt the new engine.

I am not sure how similar the WS-10A are to the Russian's engine that J-10B is currently flying in. But I believe that when J-10B was designed, WS-10A might not have reached maturity and so they are not included into the design (and who knows, the J-10B are already on drawing board right after J-10 flew). And it was not really simple matter to change that design... it is not like, you can simply pop the russian engine (AL-31F I believe) out and put in a WS-10A, I think lots of components needed to be changed and redesigned to make the engine compatible with the aircraft.

That might be the main reason we did not see much J-10B equipped with the WS-10A.

The next thing was the J-20... well... it might not even been designed with the WS-10A engines in mind at all. The Chinese might want to go right to the WS-15 or something like that right from the start... but since that engine is not ready yet, they opt for another engine that CAC might have abundants right from the start to let the aircraft fly first and since those are just prototype and not real production aircraft, they might still have time to redesign the fuselage (internal) later on (if they have not already done so).

I do believe that corruption exist... it existed everywhere, not just in the Chinese military, but in other militaries, or businesses all around the world. SAC might have been dragging their foot on many things, but up till now, we are only seeing one sided analysis of the situation and not the whole picture, might be true... might be a load of bullshit. And what I analysis might also be the case, or might also be another load of bullshit. The thing is, we do not have the real insider info, only seeing what the media (or government) wanted us to see and thats it, nothing more.

So... maybe we should stop this useless discussion and thumping on the chest on who is right and who is bullshiting and get down to something related to the engine... like technical aspect?

tphuang said:

Russia deems J-11B to be produced illegally, so it stopped selling AL-31Fs that could be used for it.



I will have to go home to dig this up. I think it was on kanwa interviews. It was also stated by numerous "big shrimps" on Chinese forums that have credibility. They have actually purchased a bunch of AL-31F engines from Russia recently, but it's all been used as replacements for the older flanker planes.
.

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Let me tell you my opinion



I do not agree with you, you whole argument has many holes


First Sukhoi`s text in English says



The implemantation of the license still going on and the delivery of spare parts to previously delivered aircraft is taking place.

Later on they say China and Russia are doing fine, no problems in the cooperation in aviation affairs.

Cooperation with China in the field of military aviation develops successfully. The implementation of the program of Su-type licensed aircraft production is going on, as well as the delivery of spare parts for previously delivered aircraft. The framework established on the basis of long-term cooperation provides for the transition in the near future to a new level of cooperation on major projects




This implies to me China can still build Su-27s, they fixed the problems and they are happy.


You argumentation first has the lack of any official proof Russia only will deliver Al-31 to China to old aircraft.

Okay you promised you will find it.

Okay i won`t believe you unless you prove it.

Now argumentation holes.

a) you claim J-11B, J-15, J-16 are illegal and China still builds them with WS-10.

b) russia is angry so no Al-31 will be delivered to new aircraft.

First Sukhoi texts implies they are happy and the license is till going on.

To me it means Russia does not care any more about the new Su-27s build in china since China still buys replacements for previously delivered aircraft and in fact If China buys Al-31s and fit them to new Su-27s that does not contradict the license.

The original license called for new Al-31s to be fitted onto new Su-27s build in China, in fact the disagreement was because WS-10 went into new build airframes and China did not want new Al-31s


So your whole argumentation is ilogic, China stopped the license in 2004 because they said no new Al-31s.

Now this is what makes me feel you do not understand, the whole point.

If WS-10 is not reliable, then it makes more sense to continue the license with Al-31s and fit the WS-10 into J-10s, why?


J-10 is Chinese, so Russia can not ask China about not fitting WS-10s into J-10s or J-20s but it can about J-11s, J-15 and J-16s since they are Sukhois Flankers.

So in My opinion unless you prove me with official documentation in the level of Sukhoi page or Saturn, maybe SAC or official Chinese sources, your theory is just an opinion


Foreign and Chinese military experts were quick to point out that the J-15, one of China's newest military aircraft, was powered by a pair of Russian Al-31 turbofans - they power almost all of China's frontline aircraft. Reports in the Russian media say Moscow has sold more than 1,000 engines from the A1-31 family to China with further, substantial orders in the pipeline

In fact in Russia there is optimism Al-31 will continue to be bought by China

MiG-29 said:

Let me tell you my opinion



I do not agree with you, you whole argument has many holes


First Sukhoi`s text in English says



The implemantation of the license still going on and the delivery of spare parts to previously delivered aircraft is taking place.

Later on they say China and Russia are doing fine, no problems in the cooperation in aviation affairs.

Cooperation with China in the field of military aviation develops successfully. The implementation of the program of Su-type licensed aircraft production is going on, as well as the delivery of spare parts for previously delivered aircraft. The framework established on the basis of long-term cooperation provides for the transition in the near future to a new level of cooperation on major projects

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This implies to me China can still build Su-27s, they fixed the problems and they are happy.


You argumentation first has the lack of any official proof Russia only will deliver Al-31 to China to old aircraft.

Okay you promised you will find it.

Okay i won`t believe you unless you prove it.

Now argumentation holes.

a) you claim J-11B, J-15, J-16 are illegal and China still builds them with WS-10.

b) russia is angry so no Al-31 will be delivered to new aircraft.

First Sukhoi texts implies they are happy and the license is till going on.

To me it means Russia does not care any more about the new Su-27s build in china since China still buys replacements for previously delivered aircraft and in fact If China buys Al-31s and fit them to new Su-27s that does not contradict the license.

The original license called for new Al-31s to be fitted onto new Su-27s build in China, in fact the disagreement was because WS-10 went into new build airframes and China did not want new Al-31s


So your whole argumentation is ilogic, China stopped the license in 2004 because they said no new Al-31s.

Now this is what makes me feel you do not understand, the whole point.

If WS-10 is not reliable, then it makes more sense to continue the license with Al-31s and fit the WS-10 into J-10s, why?


J-10 is Chinese, so Russia can not ask China about not fitting WS-10s into J-10s or J-20s but it can about J-11s, J-15 and J-16s since they are Sukhois Flankers.

So in My opinion unless you prove me with official documentation in the level of Sukhoi page or Saturn, maybe SAC or official Chinese sources, your theory is just an opinion


Foreign and Chinese military experts were quick to point out that the J-15, one of China's newest military aircraft, was powered by a pair of Russian Al-31 turbofans - they power almost all of China's frontline aircraft. Reports in the Russian media say Moscow has sold more than 1,000 engines from the A1-31 family to China with further, substantial orders in the pipeline

In fact in Russia there is optimism Al-31 will continue to be bought by China

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Well... even if what you say is true or what, it didn't conflict with the fact that the chinese would have abundant AF-31F right from the start to build new J-10B with these engine instead of going straight to the WS-10A.

Like I have mentioned before, it is not easy to change a major component like an engine (not easy to do that even for small products, much less an aircraft) in the design.

The CAC had lots of experience and a basic design framework around the Al-31F engine and so the easiest and fastest way of getting things done and having their aircraft (J-10B) in the air was using the AL-31F. That is also the same as with J-20, the easiest and fastest way of getting the first prototype to fly was to design around the AL-31F, and when the aircraft was already in the air, they could get all the data they need such as stealth, avionic, etc in place, while waiting for the WS-15 to come in. Without the basic data for the WS-15, there simply was very little anyone could do in term of designing. And why J-20 was not build with WS-10A instead... the reason might be as simple as... CAC had lots of AL-31F in their storeroom, and it is good to just utilise something that they already have (physically) and utilise on the knowledge they already have in designing sub-components and fuselage, etc for the AL031F so that the entire design leadtime would be reduced and risk being reduced too.

Plus.... could we please not derail from WS-10A?

Can someone with decent Chinese take a look at this patent?



Seems to be a recent filing by Shenyang Liming on single-crystal turbine blades.

t_co said:

Can someone with decent Chinese take a look at this patent?

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Seems to be a recent filing by Shenyang Liming on single-crystal turbine blades.

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Not really very good with Chinese, but I believe it is a patent on a type of tooling for the making of a single crystal turbine blades. The invention belongs to a type of casting method, and the tooling are those from compression tooling.

I have a question regarding engine testing and development process. Is it true, that once the engine has moved from the design phase to prototype development phase, that the engine would be tested on the ground and then in the air. In particular, whether the engine is tested on a test-platform (different aircraft like a cargo aircraft or airliner) before its intended aircraft has been mated with the engine?

If so, which platform has China been using for testing its indigenous engines such as the WS-10, WS-13 and WS-15?

Dizasta1 said:

I have a question regarding engine testing and development process. Is it true, that once the engine has moved from the design phase to prototype development phase, that the engine would be tested on the ground and then in the air. In particular, whether the engine is tested on a test-platform (different aircraft like a cargo aircraft or airliner) before its intended aircraft has been mated with the engine?

If so, which platform has China been using for testing its indigenous engines such as the WS-10, WS-13 and WS-15?

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Not sure if this was valid. But China used to operate a H-6 aircraft converted to become a testbed for 20 years, then CFTE convert a Russian IL-76MD into an engine testbed and was operating it since and I think the WS-10A was being tested on it first prior to deployment into the J-11B.