Chinese Engine Development

latenlazy said:

I'm talking about before, during, and after the invasion, where there were a billion editorials and opeds written about how wrong the war was.

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Noticed I said ABC, NBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, FOX.. ring a bell? They are ALL of the major US media who's audience is to the American people. I am not talking about world media where the tone was very much against the war. The US media is the ones that are war monger from the very start, this is something you cannot dispute, and this resulted in over 85%+ support for the invasion, which is also something you cannot dispute.

You might want to read that so you don't drown in your own little world

According to , in interview to representative at Zhuhai a Deputy Director of SARI has reported that the current TBO of WS-10A Taihang is only 300 hours. Progress with improving TBO and other characteristics is persist, but going slow. By his words, it is impossible to name a single issue causing difficulties with Chinese aircraft engines - there are a range of issues, including those related to process organisation and personnel. The situation with WS-13 Taishan, which should replace the Russian RD-93, is even more complicated than with Taihang - TBO for WS-13 is less then that 1/2 than for WS-10A."

flateric said:

According to

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, in interview to

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representative at Zhuhai a Deputy Director of SARI has reported that the current TBO of WS-10A Taihang is only 300 hours. Progress with improving TBO and other characteristics is persist, but going slow. By his words, it is impossible to name a single issue causing difficulties with Chinese aircraft engines - there are a range of issues, including those related to process organisation and personnel. The situation with WS-13 Taishan, which should replace the Russian RD-93, is even more complicated than with Taihang - TBO for WS-13 is less then that 1/2 than for WS-10A."

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If true that's very bad news. I suppose this means there are still more hurdles to overcome. However, I'm wondering how this jives with all the other information we know?

flateric said:

According to

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, in interview to

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representative at Zhuhai a Deputy Director of SARI has reported that the current TBO of WS-10A Taihang is only 300 hours. Progress with improving TBO and other characteristics is persist, but going slow. By his words, it is impossible to name a single issue causing difficulties with Chinese aircraft engines - there are a range of issues, including those related to process organisation and personnel. The situation with WS-13 Taishan, which should replace the Russian RD-93, is even more complicated than with Taihang - TBO for WS-13 is less then that 1/2 than for WS-10A."

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I seriously doubt his words. MTB 300 hrs? I doubt PLAAF will accept it into service and put on J-11B , BS, J-15 , J-15S, J-16. The fact, WS-10A is widely used in many types of planes tell us other things. I can see you are from russia.

we can't know that with any dose of certainty. 300 hours mtbo is around what al31 engines from the 90s had, perhaps a bit better than that. On one hand it is not so bad, and it certainly isn't a showstopper as it can be overcome with more engines for the whole fleet. USAF had similar issues in vietnam war which they remedied by simply rotating more often with more engines.



Here it mentions the f100 engines and its 4300 cycles between overhauls. Those 4300 cycles are enough for 7 years of operation. Since f15s fly some 270 hours per year (per globalsecurity.org), one could conclude that MTBO of f100 has been 1890 hours. That was the current generation of engines. Next generation is expected to have 6000 cycles between overhaul.

One should also note that the US definition of overhaul and russian or chinese definition of overhaul may not be the same.

Also, one can usually read that the first version of f100 engine, the f100-pw-100 had total life expectancy of 16 years. Since the -220 version first had a 4000 cycle mtbo (to be increased to 4300 by today) and that in itself was an improvement over the -100 version, one can conclude that -100 version had less than 4000 cycles mtbo. Was it 3000 cycles or less or more, i don't know. If f15s flew the same, 3000 cycles would translate to roughly 1300 hours mtbo. It also suggests 4.9 years between overhauls or a total life of 9800 hours. Again, that is just a rough guesstimate for version -100. Today's version -229, before the latest enhancement, with 4300 cycles mtbo may mean its total life is around 22 years or some 6000 hours or some 13.500 cycles.

Here is a decent document on older us engines and overhaul practices.

It mentions the old j79 engine of f4, and mentions 1200 hours, maximum, between overhaul. it also mentions that mtbo (maximum time, not mean time in that document) is a quite a flexible figure. a new engine will start off with perhaps hundreds of hours, and as the production and procedures mature over the years, will increase to over a 1000 hours. it is very important to note they are using atbo and mtbo as average time and maximum time. MTBO as used in recent years is likely to be mean time, or average time. Difference can be drastic, as the document above says that usual atbo for an engine of maximum time between overhaul of 1200 hours is 750 hours.

Keep in mind j79 is an old turbojet design. the document mentions tf30 engines, first turbofans. their maximum time before overhal dropped in some instances to 600 hours. That would suggest that average time between overhauls was 375 hours.

CAST is a Russian outfit, what are their reputation? I am suspicous of this claim given how much BS Russian sources have been spreading about China that subsequently turned out to be wrong.

I would like to see an actual recording of the interview or at the very least a transcript of it before I make up my mind.

Knowing Chinese officials, it is very rare for them to give out specific numbers, so I do wonder if the '300 hours' was actually what was said or just inferred, like if the SARI deputy director said it was similar to the AL31F, and CAST just took the lowest TBO for AL31Fs and reported it as 300 hours. That is why the source of the story and their reputation is important.

Are there any other sources that are also reporting 300hours TBO?

plawolf said:

CAST is a Russian outfit, what are their reputation? I am suspicous of this claim given how much BS Russian sources have been spreading about China that subsequently turned out to be wrong.

I would like to see an actual recording of the interview or at the very least a transcript of it before I make up my mind.

Knowing Chinese officials, it is very rare for them to give out specific numbers, so I do wonder if the '300 hours' was actually what was said or just inferred, like if the SARI deputy director said it was similar to the AL31F, and CAST just took the lowest TBO for AL31Fs and reported it as 300 hours. That is why the source of the story and their reputation is important.

Are there any other sources that are also reporting 300hours TBO?

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Salyut is the most reliable source and china bought 410 Al-31s in just one year



China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines. State arms trade agency Rosoboronexport clinched two big contracts earlier this year. One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters
+
The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plant.

that equals =270 engines in 2011
later they said


Speaking to AIN at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October

and in Febraury 2012 we get this news

Chinese Ministry of Defense acquired 140 AL-31F engines through intermediary of Rosoboronexport in early 2012, Lenta.ru reports with reference to Vedomosti.

According to the source, close to the Russian export state company, the amount of the contract is about $700 million. Moscow-based FSUE “Gas-turbine engineering research and production center “Salut” will be delivering the engines to the Chinese customer.

Follow us on: During the last two and a half years China has acquired Russian engines to the amount of $4 billion; thanks to these contracts Salut has workload until 2015. It is expected that China will order more AL-31F engines in future (this refers to the high-powered modifications). At that the 140 ordered engines will have the increased thrust.

China acquired 150 AL-31F engines in 2011 for Su-27 fighters delivered earlier to this country and the Chinese copies of Su-27 – J-11 aircraft. The Chinese party has also purchased 123 AL-31FN engines for J-10 jets. In addition, the contract on delivery of 186 D-30KP-2 engines to China intended for Il-76 transport aircraft, H-6 bombers (a copy of Tu-16) and new Y-20 transport aircraft was signed in autumn 2011.

CEO of Salut, Vladislav Masalov, said last October that the total number of engines delivered to China has already exceeded 1000 ones. At that it is getting harder to perform contracts for Salut with the increase of orders. "We have some bottlenecks connected with suppliers of metal and some



so 140+120+150=410 engines in les than 2 years

CAST is quite reputable think tank with 15 years in the business. No aggressive presence in mass-media compared to other 'independent analysts', with many of their forecasts coming to reality, while there were some mistakes.

CAST is led by its two original founders, Ruslan Pukhov (Director) and Konstantin Makienko (Deputy Director). Both have earned a reputation as leading experts on the Russian defense industry and arms trade. Their professional commentary can often be found in the Russian and foreign press, on the radio and on television. In 2007, Ruslan Pukhov became a member of the Public Council under the Russian Defense Ministry. In 2008, Konstantin Makienko was appointed member of the expert council under the Russian Duma defense committee.

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While membership in last two organizations doesn't automatically mean that you are super guru, it means meanwhile that you are somewhat more serious than Alexander Goltz or Pavel Felgengauer.

Citation that I put in previous post do not intend to troll someone's patriotic feelings.
Just thought it would be interesting to read. Honestly, I wouldn't expect such show-down from SARI guy to Russian.
So - perhaps he was trolling him, was trying to hand a line or he (or they both) was drunk - who knows.

MiG-29 said:

Salyut is the most reliable source and china bought 410 Al-31s in just one year



China has placed additional orders for Russian AL-31-series fighter engines. State arms trade agency Rosoboronexport clinched two big contracts earlier this year. One is for more than 150 AL-31Fs as replacements for earlier engines of same type that power the Su-27/Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters
+
The second contract is for more than 120 AL-31FN engines to power newly built Chengdu J-10 fighters. Engines under this contract are already being delivered, from the Moscow-based Salut plant.

that equals =270 engines in 2011
later they said


Speaking to AIN at the Aviation Expo 2011 in Beijing, Salut general director Vladislav Masalov said that negotiations continue on a second batch of nearly 140 AL-31FNs and that a follow-on contract is expected to be signed in October

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and in Febraury 2012 we get this news

Chinese Ministry of Defense acquired 140 AL-31F engines through intermediary of Rosoboronexport in early 2012, Lenta.ru reports with reference to Vedomosti.

According to the source, close to the Russian export state company, the amount of the contract is about $700 million. Moscow-based FSUE “Gas-turbine engineering research and production center “Salut” will be delivering the engines to the Chinese customer.

Follow us on: During the last two and a half years China has acquired Russian engines to the amount of $4 billion; thanks to these contracts Salut has workload until 2015. It is expected that China will order more AL-31F engines in future (this refers to the high-powered modifications). At that the 140 ordered engines will have the increased thrust.

China acquired 150 AL-31F engines in 2011 for Su-27 fighters delivered earlier to this country and the Chinese copies of Su-27 – J-11 aircraft. The Chinese party has also purchased 123 AL-31FN engines for J-10 jets. In addition, the contract on delivery of 186 D-30KP-2 engines to China intended for Il-76 transport aircraft, H-6 bombers (a copy of Tu-16) and new Y-20 transport aircraft was signed in autumn 2011.

CEO of Salut, Vladislav Masalov, said last October that the total number of engines delivered to China has already exceeded 1000 ones. At that it is getting harder to perform contracts for Salut with the increase of orders. "We have some bottlenecks connected with suppliers of metal and some

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

so 140+120+150=410 engines in les than 2 years

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It might be true what you say that China ordered 410 engines in just two years (to be delivered in full in 2015) however i have a different read to the reason than you. To me China is simply replacing old AL-31 engines in her fleet as of now China has about 260 J-10, 100 SU-30MKK, 70 SU-27SK, 100 older J-11/J-11A that is about 530 planes in the PLAAF fleet that uses some version of the AL-31. And since China is intensifying the training of its pilots it means that they need more replacement for their engines and other spare parts.

The Shenyang J-11B and J-11BS is in full production with WS-10A and all of the new projects like the J-10B J-15, J-16 and even the J-20 are all testing with the WS-10A.

As for the WS-10A whatever the truth is China has to start from somewhere but if China keeps importing and using foreign engines for its new planes then China will never be able to master the technology of turbofan engines.

our next piece of anecdotal evidence will be whether the J-10B uses the WS-10 or not

there are pics of supposedly production series aircraft floating around lately, but no clear shot of the engine yet