Chinese Engine Development

Centrist said:

Hey guys, some interesting news. Huitong has updated his entry about the J-15. I am putting it here because he has changed the name of the engines from WS-10A to WS-10H. He claims that the WS-10H has additional thrust (as rumored early) but is still only 125kN, that means the WS-10 is a lot weaker than the reported 132 kN

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Lets face the facts. WS-10 is the first turbofan made by china. Dont expect a lot from it. (i remember reading in a magazine back in 1992, asking when will china develop turbofans)

However if WS-15 dissapoints, then china engine industry has a big problem.

He said that the TO thrust is 125kN, and I was under the impression that the TO thrust is less than the maximum thrust since the airflow is slower than optimum for turbofans during TO. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if I were completely wrong, and somebody more knowledgeable feel free to correct me if I am. I'm basing my assumption solely on my rudimentary understanding of how turbofans work.

Centrist said:

Hey guys, some interesting news. Huitong has updated his entry about the J-15. I am putting it here because he has changed the name of the engines from WS-10A to WS-10H. He claims that the WS-10H has additional thrust (as rumored early) but is still only 125kN, that means the WS-10 is a lot weaker than the reported 132 kN

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Is a 7 kN difference considered a lot with engine thrust?
I think it would be wiser to consider these engines in thrust class, rather than trying to glean a precise number. I assume taht just because engine A has a greater max thrust than engine B, doesn't mean that engine A provides more thrust in every (useful, combat) situation compared to B.

kroko said:

Lets face the facts. WS-10 is the first turbofan made by china. Dont expect a lot from it. (i remember reading in a magazine back in 1992, asking when will china develop turbofans)

However if WS-15 dissapoints, then china engine industry has a big problem.

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We've expected it to equip chinese flankers and eventually J-10s, with on par or superior performance to Al-31 (I'm still interested to see MTBO comparison between the two). WS-10's equipping all SAC flankers, and just today we saw it on a J-10B (testbed?). Whether that counts as expecting "a lot" is subjective.
Besides, there will be continued variants of WS-10 going in the future -- a variant will power the Y-20, and upgraded variants will undoubtedly power new flankers and J-10 variants. The WS-10 will not end with flankers.

Also I believe one of the biggest problems with WS-10 was not a crippling challenge in technology or unable to meet thrust specs, but quality control in the maass production phase. With PLAAF and PLANAF adopting mass production flankers with WS-10 and J-10B being tested with one WS-10 it looks like they finally got this issue ironed out.

At the moment WS-15 doesn't seem to have encountered massive problems, but undoubtedly there'll be delays. Again I think the challenge won't be technology, but reliable mass production. XAC seems to have a better track record than shenyang, so hopefully that won't be as much of an issue. kkk

7kn => 7000n => 714 kg of force. add to that it's twin engine so 1428 kg of force. you can decide from that.

Bltizo said:

just today we saw it on a J-10B (testbed?)

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Yeah, this means that they are more confident with the engine. A single-engine plane is more risky than a two-engine plane.

Bltizo said:

At the moment WS-15 doesn't seem to have encountered massive problems, but undoubtedly there'll be delays. Again I think the challenge won't be technology, but reliable mass production. XAC seems to have a better track record than shenyang, so hopefully that won't be as much of an issue. kkk

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XAC is developing WS-15 ? didnt knew about that. I wonder why. After all, SAC already has experience developing WS-10. Why choosing another company ?

kroko said:

Yeah, this means that they are more confident with the engine. A single-engine plane is more risky than a two-engine plane.

XAC is developing WS-15 ? didnt knew about that. I wonder why. After all, SAC already has experience developing WS-10. Why choosing another company ?

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Actually I'm not sure if the Xi'an engine institute are the same guys as XAC -- but they are the same guys who developed and produced the WS-9.
Possibly PLAAF went with Xi'an because of Shenyang's quality control problems with WS-10 and Xi'an's better track record(?). Also Shenyang would be busy with WS-10 and its variants for years into the future I imagine...

is there a different between F-404 engine used by USN carrier and Kuwaiti and malaysia F-404 use in F-18A?
possible that WS-10H was design or modified to be use on J-15.

challenge said:

is there a different between F-404 engine used by USN carrier and Kuwaiti and malaysia F-404 use in F-18A?
possible that WS-10H was design or modified to be use on J-15.

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Is not possible. It's yes. Ain't you following the things happening here?

Centrist said:

So how reliable is this? Doesn't it say that the WS-10H isn't ready? Then what engine is on the J-15?

The WS-10 is only 125KN?

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1. The paper seems to be very reliable. It had hard numbers.
2. The paper was 2009(?) so we don't know the current state of the engine.

There are rumors that WS10's thrust was reduced from 132kN to 125kN to improve life expectancy. Keep in mind that it has been 2 years since that paper, so I hope they have fixed whatever issue with the engine life.

johnqh said:

1. The paper seems to be very reliable. It had hard numbers.
2. The paper was 2009(?) so we don't know the current state of the engine.

There are rumors that WS10's thrust was reduced from 132kN to 125kN to improve life expectancy. Keep in mind that it has been 2 years since that paper, so I hope they have fixed whatever issue with the engine life.

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I wonder: if WS-10 is just 125kN, than do we need to downgrade our expectations to WS-15 expected performance?