Chinese Economics Thread

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
You want to project as far as 2100? Alright. By 2100, rejuvenation biotechnology will have advanced to such a point that aging will be essentially cured. 70 year-olds in 2100 will look, feel, and function as they did when they were in their mid-twenties. Automation and AI will also have advanced to a point where human labour is rendered obsolete.

I think some of that is quite plausible.
If you think that's science fiction, that's fine. But you should understand that these population projections are every bit as speculative.

They aren't. A massive increase in the number of older people is definitely happening (number of people over 60 is doubling by 2040) and fertility is far from the replacement rate, meaning that every generation is less than 80 percent of the preceding one.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Yes.

No. That doesn't make sense. You can see that changes are modeled. That's why confidence intervals and high and low variants are reported.

Population predictions are by nature much less speculative than most others. For example, everyone who will be older than 32 (which for China means more than half of the population) in 2050 has already been born.
China's total fertility rate is far below replacement and has been there for a quarter of a century. It is also not seeing
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growth to get above replacement.

First, "modeled" fertility rates are still just guesses. The fertility graph, for example, shows China's fertility rate following that of East Asia. That is a pretty dubious model, as Chinese social dynamics are very different from those of Japan, both Koreas, or Vietnam.

Second, the family planning policy has only been changed a few years. It takes time to see the effects clearly. Come back in 10 years, and we'll have a clearer picture.

Finally, while there are negligible migrations into China at the moment, there is nothing that says it will stay that way. As China become more prosperous, we might very well see economic migrants from neighboring countries or even Africa choosing to immigrate to China.

That goes back to the problem with population projections I mentioned. China is a very dynamic country with a very responsive leadership that is not afraid of implementing big changes. These population projections do not take those into account.

For example, are you familiar with China's push to develop its sparsely populated western regions? I'm sure you've heard about OBOR, but have you read about China's progress on desert reclamation and terraforming? As the New Silk Road initiative takes shape, I predict that we will see growing population centers in the Xinjiang, Qinghai, and Gansu, possibly even Tibet and Inner Mongolia. Those new population centers may well be populated by immigrants as China becomes a more multicultural nation, as it once was during the Tang dynasty.
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
First, "modeled" fertility rates are still just guesses.
Disagree.

The fertility graph, for example, shows China's fertility rate following that of East Asia. That is a pretty dubious model, as Chinese social dynamics are very different from those of Japan, both Koreas, or Vietnam.
The lines are very close (presumably) because it's a weighted average and China is more than 80% of East Asia by population. So it's actually East Asia's line following China's line. China's
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is higher than the rest of East Asia, but still below the replacement rate.

Second, the family planning policy has only been changed a few years. It takes time to see the effects clearly. Come back in 10 years, and we'll have a clearer picture.
Sure, and there's more room for policy changes. After all, if a limit of two children is applied to everyone, that's still
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fertility. But judging from the situation in other countries, achieving any substantial increase will be difficult.
Furthermore, fertility is negatively
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with GDP per capita, which could mean that China's will fall as incomes rise.

Finally, while there are negligible migrations into China at the moment, there is nothing that says it will stay that way. As China become more prosperous, we might very well see economic migrants from neighboring countries or even Africa choosing to immigrate to China.

That goes back to the problem with population projections I mentioned. China is a very dynamic country with a very responsive leadership that is not afraid of implementing big changes. These population projections do not take those into account.

For example, are you familiar with China's push to develop its sparsely populated western regions? I'm sure you've heard about OBOR, but have you read about China's progress on desert reclamation and terraforming? As the New Silk Road initiative takes shape, I predict that we will see growing population centers in the Xinjiang, Qinghai, and Gansu, possibly even Tibet and Inner Mongolia. Those new population centers may well be populated by immigrants as China becomes a more multicultural nation, as it once was during the Tang dynasty.
On demographic policy, it would be hard to describe China's leadership as responsive.

Immigration is of course an option, but one that's in some ways much harder than natural population growth. It comes with many questions, such as whether China would take in immigrants and whether it should.
So far there is no indication of China looking to bring in large amounts of immigrants.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Disagree.

The lines are very close (presumably) because it's a weighted average and China is more than 80% of East Asia by population. So it's actually East Asia's line following China's line. China's
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is higher than the rest of East Asia, but still below the replacement rate.

Sure, and there's more room for policy changes. After all, if a limit of two children is applied to everyone, that's still
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fertility. But judging from the situation in other countries, achieving any substantial increase will be difficult.
Furthermore, fertility is negatively
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with GDP per capita, which could mean that China's will fall as incomes rise.

On demographic policy, it would be hard to describe China's leadership as responsive.

Immigration is of course an option, but one that's in some ways much harder than natural population growth. It comes with many questions, such as whether China would take in immigrants and whether it should.
So far there is no indication of China looking to bring in large amounts of immigrants.

A lot of opinions in that post.

First, this is China:

81caad94b3814cd5b8ab21de.jpg


beijingskyline_afpgetty.jpg




This is also China:


1*yH1l9s8Ddk03plJr_fZTFQ.jpeg


160527155003-cfp485055842-super-169.jpg



China is both First World and Third World. Taking the average of those two extremes presents a very misleading picture. Sure, people in Shanghai and Beijing will not want more than one or two kids, but what about people in Guizhou, Shanxi, or Anhui?

You think the Chinese government is not responsive on demographics? They've been following a careful plan for years, if not decades now. What do you think the HSR, so-called "ghost" cities, and now the OBOR, are about? If you haven't made the link between all those policies and initiatives, then you haven't been paying attention.

As for immigration, it is happening already:

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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Great Britain controlled the world because they raped, pillaged, and plundered the world.
C'mon, you talk about Europe.

They controlled the world beause they was more effective than Spain, Frrance, Dutch and so on to do that.
The British build better ships for less money.
You see the history from Chinese way, I see it from european way.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
A lot of opinions in that post.

First, this is China:

81caad94b3814cd5b8ab21de.jpg


beijingskyline_afpgetty.jpg




This is also China:


1*yH1l9s8Ddk03plJr_fZTFQ.jpeg


160527155003-cfp485055842-super-169.jpg



China is both First World and Third World. Taking the average of those two extremes presents a very misleading picture. Sure, people in Shanghai and Beijing will not want more than one or two kids, but what about people in Guizhou, Shanxi, or Anhui?

You think the Chinese government is not responsive on demographics? They've been following a careful plan for years, if not decades now. What do you think the HSR, so-called "ghost" cities, and now the OBOR, are about? If you haven't made the link between all those policies and initiatives, then you haven't been paying attention.

As for immigration, it is happening already:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


In the immediate above photo. are those kids going to school?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
In the immediate above photo. are those kids going to school?

Yes they are going to school though the govenment build boarding apartment for the student down in the valley and they are given small stipend for books, stationery, food, clothing too if I am not wrong and free boarding But maybe some of the kid prefer home. It is free 9 years education I think they should jack it up to 15 years of free education like in Tibet and Xinjiang


They did install ladder steel to this village and provide telephone and internet service some of them become internet celebrity gy detailing their life in the village

China's first medical drone delivers essential supplies to 'cliff village'

2017-12-20 12:53

chinadaily.com.cn Editor: Gu Liping

U472P886T1D285204F137DT20171220125323.jpg


China's
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Province, on Dec 14


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DRETPSDV4AEIhRo.jpg

DRETQkVUQAEbMuO.jpg

DRETQkYUEAAS6bz.jpg


A video shot recently shows a drone carrying medical supplies landing in the mountaintop village Atuleer in Liangshan Yi autonomous prefecture, Southwest China's Sichuan province.

The medical drone delivery service, the first of its kind in the country, jointly launched by China's second-largest e-commerce website JD, and China Siyuan Foundation for Poverty Alleviation, has been started to help deliver essential medical supplies to villagers in Atuleer.

The village, home to 500 residents living atop a cliff more than 1,400 meters high, became famous a year ago when reports emerged of villagers braving the vertical climb on the cliff to go in or out of the village.

With the help of the drone, it only takes 10 minutes to deliver medical supplies, while before this the villagers had to use the ladders to buy medicines and it usually took six to nine hours to complete a round trip.

"Villagers are unable to get sufficient medical care as the local health service is still very poor. Medical drone delivery can help improve the condition with lower costs," said Sun Zhixiang, vice-president of JD.

The village now has a newly built steel ladder and internet, as well as 4G signals.

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PiSigma

"the engineer"
Yes they are going to school though the govenment build boarding apartment for the student down in the valley and they are given small stipend for books, stationery, food, clothing too if I am not wrong and free boarding But maybe some of the kid prefer home. It is free 9 years education I think they should jack it up to 15 years of free education like in Tibet and Xinjiang


They did install ladder steel to this village and provide telephone and internet service some of them become internet celebrity gy detailing their life in the village

China's first medical drone delivers essential supplies to 'cliff village'

2017-12-20 12:53

chinadaily.com.cn Editor: Gu Liping

U472P886T1D285204F137DT20171220125323.jpg


China's
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Province, on Dec 14


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


DRETPSDV4AEIhRo.jpg

DRETQkVUQAEbMuO.jpg

DRETQkYUEAAS6bz.jpg


A video shot recently shows a drone carrying medical supplies landing in the mountaintop village Atuleer in Liangshan Yi autonomous prefecture, Southwest China's Sichuan province.

The medical drone delivery service, the first of its kind in the country, jointly launched by China's second-largest e-commerce website JD, and China Siyuan Foundation for Poverty Alleviation, has been started to help deliver essential medical supplies to villagers in Atuleer.

The village, home to 500 residents living atop a cliff more than 1,400 meters high, became famous a year ago when reports emerged of villagers braving the vertical climb on the cliff to go in or out of the village.

With the help of the drone, it only takes 10 minutes to deliver medical supplies, while before this the villagers had to use the ladders to buy medicines and it usually took six to nine hours to complete a round trip.

"Villagers are unable to get sufficient medical care as the local health service is still very poor. Medical drone delivery can help improve the condition with lower costs," said Sun Zhixiang, vice-president of JD.

The village now has a newly built steel ladder and internet, as well as 4G signals.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
At least the village is zombie proof. They are probably self sufficient other than in modern medicine.
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
A lot of opinions in that post.
So far, I've been the only one to post any data.


First, this is China:
This is also China:

China is both First World and Third World. Taking the average of those two extremes presents a very misleading picture. Sure, people in Shanghai and Beijing will not want more than one or two kids, but what about people in Guizhou, Shanxi, or Anhui?
There is nothing wrong with taking the average value in this case, as it counts people from all the places you listed. I don't know how many children residents of Guizhou want, but I do know that China's total fertility rate is 1.6. What use is pointing at (hypothetical) outliers when the actual value for all Chinese citizens is available?


You think the Chinese government is not responsive on demographics?
China's total fertility rate went below replacement in 1992 and the one child policy was abolished in 2015. Really groundbreaking reaction time.


They've been following a careful plan for years, if not decades now.
Maybe. It's just that from the outside, the plan seems pretty bad.


What do you think the HSR, so-called "ghost" cities, and now the OBOR, are about? If you haven't made the link between all those policies and initiatives, then you haven't been paying attention.
I'm not going to refute an argument that hasn't even been presented. Suffice to say these things are more related to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.


As for immigration, it is happening already:

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Through this article one can learn that in 2010 there were about 600 thousand foreigners (not counting people from Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan) in China. Ignoring the question of many stayed for a long time or permanently, that number is 0.05% of China's population, an insignicant number in any context.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
So far, I've been the only one to post any data.



There is nothing wrong with taking the average value in this case, as it counts people from all the places you listed. I don't know how many children residents of Guizhou want, but I do know that China's total fertility rate is 1.6. What use is pointing at (hypothetical) outliers when the actual value for all Chinese citizens is available?



China's total fertility rate went below replacement in 1992 and the one child policy was abolished in 2015. Really groundbreaking reaction time.



Maybe. It's just that from the outside, the plan seems pretty bad.



I'm not going to refute an argument that hasn't even been presented. Suffice to say these things are more related to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.



Through this article one can learn that in 2010 there were about 600 thousand foreigners (not counting people from Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan) in China. Ignoring the question of many stayed for a long time or permanently, that number is 0.05% of China's population, an insignicant number in any context.
@solarz , I don't know if you took a look at his data but it put China's population in 2100 at between 600 million to 1.6 billion. I expect then that all the age group estimates also fluctuate similarly. That's extremely wide coverage and not really much to argue about even though there's still no guarantee that it will turn out "right". In general, I don't pay any mind to predictions of what's to come almost a century later because anything could happen in that span of time: war, plague, famine, global mass extinction (yes, some predict global mass extinction in 2100), life rejuvenating biotechnology (as some pointed out), colonization of other planets (or maybe underwater cities), etc...

Klon, China's reported total fertility may have went below replacement in 1992 but China's population has continued to rise and is still rising. Given that, stopping the one child policy (which was clearly not strictly followed) in 1992 would have lead to even greater population increases. It's easy to criticize; some may say it sounds pretty terrible, but if it had not been implemented and China's population had grown disastrously with some 3 or 4 billion people today, the plan might suddenly seem really good. But the mouths that criticism will never stop because there is no alternate world were one can see where China would be today without the one child policy. If there were, maybe those people in that world would be saying, "How could the Chinese government be so irresponsible as to let its population get so far out of control? They should have implemented some sort of population control such as restricting the number of births per couple."
 
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