Chinese Economics Thread

[manqiangrexue]

The reason why China is able to produce so many engineers is because in China engineers on average makes more than lawyers. In the US its the reverse. The smart people in any country follows the money.

I've noticed the same thing. China values education (and money) while Americans value money money money. Here in the US, if you tell people you're an MD, people immediately think money bags but if you tell them you're a PhD, they think you're some kind of dork toiling away with nerd shit for $40K stipend a year or something. In China, PhD's are considered a rank superior to MD's (since Chinese MDs go through medical college, not medical school after college) because they have a higher level of education. They are valued for their ability to develop the field and unlike in the US, are not paid far less than MDs.

 

[vesicles]

I've noticed the same thing. China values education (and money) while Americans value money money money. Here in the US, if you tell people you're an MD, people immediately think money bags but if you tell them you're a PhD, they think you're some kind of dork toiling away with nerd shit for $40K stipend a year or something. In China, PhD's are considered a rank superior to MD's (since Chinese MDs go through medical college, not medical school after college) because they have a higher level of education. They are valued for their ability to develop the field and unlike in the US, are not paid far less than MDs.

Man! You sound like there is actually a comparison. MD's have nothing on PhD's. PhD's are always superior to MD's, alway!

You know why physicians always wear white coats? And they seem not want to parted with their white coats. They keep their white coats in their cars, wear them in their offices, walking on the streets, at restaurants. I bet they would wear their white coats in sauna if they can. At the turn of the 20th century, medical doctors were close to the status of voodoo / witch doctors. In order to change their image and convince people that they actually knew something about the natural world, they started wearing lab coats, which at the time were only worn by scientists. You see, they are imposters, trying to pretend to be people of science.

Even nowadays, medical doctors don't actually understand biology. I myself have been trained alongside MD's in my first postdoctoral fellowship. These MD's know human anatomy, memorize disease symptoms and treatment strategies very well. However, their understanding of fundamental biology is still at undergraduate level. Most of the currently practicing physicians' understanding of biology is still at the time of their college graduation, which could be as many as 30-40 years ago. Yes, they must take classes each year to keep their licenses, but biology has evolved so fast. It's impossible to keep up with the most important new discoveries with a few classes and conferences. Plus, most physicians use the chances to go to conferences as their vacation time. They go in, register and get stamps to show that they have come to the conference. Then they go off to enjoy vacation.

I now teach medical school classes every once in a while. The Med School basically told us flat out that we should only teach the materials that will be covered in the Steps (the MD license exam like the Bar exam for lawyers). Nothing more. And we are told to keep our teaching as practical as possible. Don't lecture on basic stuff. Students will get bored. You can imagine how limited their knowledge base is...

 

[sanblvd]

So how is Indian's STEM quality? I know their public education's basic education produces very low quality children, I also know top of the top quality of their college grades goes to America, what about the rest of the millions of their graduates?

 

[Franklin]

I've noticed the same thing. China values education (and money) while Americans value money money money. Here in the US, if you tell people you're an MD, people immediately think money bags but if you tell them you're a PhD, they think you're some kind of dork toiling away with nerd shit for $40K stipend a year or something. In China, PhD's are considered a rank superior to MD's (since Chinese MDs go through medical college, not medical school after college) because they have a higher level of education. They are valued for their ability to develop the field and unlike in the US, are not paid far less than MDs.

Rather its in China or the US or any other country the first motive in chosing a profession is how much can one make. They all have dedication to their crafts because that's the only way you can make a good living. Which professions makes more in a country has to do with how that country and society is organized and their views and values. Lawyers in the US makes more because Americans values the rule of law. Its a article of faith in the US. The reason why MD's and others in the healthcare sector in the US make so much money is because the US spends about 16% of GDP on healthcare.

The reason why in China engineers and scientists makes more is because China values science and technology more. This has to do with China's history. When China was weak in these area's China was invaded and humiliated by foreign powers think the Century of Humiliation. The PRC was founded in the wake of the Century of Humiliation. The reason why the Chinese take so much pride in their scientific and technological achievements is not only because of the economic and political benefits that they get from it or that they are finally joining the big league. But it also gives them a sense of security.

 

[vesicles]

As to why more Chinese go into science and engineering. A lot of it might be tradition. In the 70's and 80's when China just emerged from decades of destruction, they understood that they needed a lot scientists and engineers to develop their technology. Without technology, they can't do anything. That's their foundation. So the government emphasized science and engineering a lot. There used to be a saying in the 80's: "when you learn your math, physics and chemistry well, you won't have nothing to fear anywhere you go".

The current high school and college students are the kids of the generation above. These kids have been influenced a lot by their parents. So being in science and engineering might have simply been a tradition thing. How many of our fellow forum members became who they are today because of their parents' influence? I know I am one of them. I became a scientist because my parents are scientists.

And the trend is slowly turning. I believe nowadays the most talented Chinese students are choosing business majors over science and engineering.

 

[vesicles]

Another possible explanation. As China opened its door to the outside world in the 80's and 90's, many people got a chance to go abroad, especially the US. The US needed and still needs a lot of scientists and engineers, mainly scientists. So they naturally import a lot more scientists and engineers. So for Chinese, it was so much easier to come to the US if you had a science/engineering degree. That might also be what motivated many Chinese kids to choose science and engineering as their majors.

Nowadays, it's no longer a big deal to come to the US. So kids begin to choose the majors that will most likely guarantee them a good future in China. And like anywhere in the world, business degrees...

 

[PiSigma]

So how is Indian's STEM quality? I know their public education's basic education produces very low quality children, I also know top of the top quality of their college grades goes to America, what about the rest of the millions of their graduates?

Some are very good and some are poor, just like in China or USA. The kids that go to IIT are brilliant and can really go to school anywhere and be in the top. Then their are third rate diploma mills that produce people that can't screw a light bulb. I have worked with people in both groups, the good ones all immigrate out, the ones I have worked with in India ( good ones left in India, because HR told me) are some of the dumbest "engineers" I have ever worked with. I know new grads in Canada fresh out of school that know more than some "senior engineers" that the company pushes onto me from India. But the Indian engineers I work with here have never disappointed me. This also apply to Chinese engineers, however, the ones I worked with in China are really good as well, but there are a few dumb ones as well (80% good, 20% bad). The ones that immigrated are generally really good.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Rather its in China or the US or any other country the first motive in chosing a profession is how much can one make. They all have dedication to their crafts because that's the only way you can make a good living. Which professions makes more in a country has to do with how that country and society is organized and their views and values. Lawyers in the US makes more because Americans values the rule of law. Its a article of faith in the US. The reason why MD's and others in the healthcare sector in the US make so much money is because the US spends about 16% of GDP on healthcare.

The reason why in China engineers and scientists makes more is because China values science and technology more. This has to do with China's history. When China was weak in these area's China was invaded and humiliated by foreign powers think the Century of Humiliation. The PRC was founded in the wake of the Century of Humiliation. The reason why the Chinese take so much pride in their scientific and technological achievements is not only because of the economic and political benefits that they get from it or that they are finally joining the big league. But it also gives them a sense of security.

It is reflection of the country development stages more than anything else. Supply and demand at work

China is in the mid of building infrastructure, road, housing, transportation, rail, subway you name it
The export economy also need engineer to produce good

So it is naturally need a lot of engineer to do those jobs
As a consequence they get paid more than say Med Doctor or Lawyer. There is less need for lawyer in China now because most of the dispute is settled through arbitration and negotiation. So China is still in catch up mode and it will be so for decades to comes

Us and the west has entered post industrialization where they practically finish building the infrastructure like power plant and no more money for science experimentation like Space program etc. Use cheap outsource instead of building factory

So consequentially there is less demand for engineer
The situation is exacerbate by anti nuclear, environment crusade and war and the 60's expansion of welfare program which make less money available for science oriented program, Union and the rising expectation of making big money for doing manual labor making production in US uncompetitive
And I would say the lazyness of US industrial captain(MBA) to move the value ladder unlike Germany which has one of the highest cost structure in the world but stay competitive by advancing technology and export and keep the good people in the company

IN the 60's there is high prestige being an engineer with all the Apollo program and nuclear industry was booming because people move to suburb from the country side
TV program like "I love Genie" were popular

Outsourcing and and wall street compounded the problem with their obsession of quarterly result forcing company to hire MBA to improve their quarterly result.And wholesale destruction of job security in engineering profession because now engineering is consider as variable cost that can be reduced anytime. Unlike Germany and Japan which consider them as an asset!

So naturally the young people react to those circumstance and consider engineering is not worth effort. Not to mention that engineering is one of the subject that is hard to master
Why bother ?

TV and media also contribute to the demise of technical profession since they idolized sport jock, lawyer , doctor etc
An of course US is litigation happy people where every body sue everybody for the slightest insult
The aging population too contribute to demand for doctor and nurses

So it is many factor

 

[vesicles]

Some are very good and some are poor, just like in China or USA. The kids that go to IIT are brilliant and can really go to school anywhere and be in the top. Then their are third rate diploma mills that produce people that can't screw a light bulb. I have worked with people in both groups, the good ones all immigrate out, the ones I have worked with in India ( good ones left in India, because HR told me) are some of the dumbest "engineers" I have ever worked with. I know new grads in Canada fresh out of school that know more than some "senior engineers" that the company pushes onto me from India. But the Indian engineers I work with here have never disappointed me. This also apply to Chinese engineers, however, the ones I worked with in China are really good as well, but there are a few dumb ones as well (80% good, 20% bad). The ones that immigrated are generally really good.

I've worked with many Indian colleagues. I would say most of them are very talented and have excellent work ethics.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Make the dessert bloom China effort of reforestation slowly bring the dessert back But still a long way It will take generation to push back the dessert and will involve both private and government outfit
It is good strategy to involve the private sector in this endeavor

It is all man made amazing