Chinese Economics Thread

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Japan has no habit of constructing ghost towns.
It's completely idiotic to artificially create demand to fill supply. It should be the other way around reducing supply to meet demand. Have PRC been able to reduce the ghost town supply?
No?
Creating more supply of ghost towns is never the answer.

Ghost town is a myth . There is some misunderstanding in the west about ghost town. Wade Sheppard is the one that first who wrote about ghost town . But even he now concede that the ghost town is a myth.

They are filling fast. There is lag between when the housing part of a new city finish and the supporting infrastructure of transportation, schooling, business district etc completed . That give it appearance of ghost town .People are not going to move to a new city when there is no infrastructure.

The second part is governing planing . It is better to built city first and move people latter than the other way around . That explain the lack of slum in China . So The government mandated city or town to built new city to anticipate for population growth.
Since the city finance is from the sale of real estate there is incentive to buy land cheap built it and sell it at high price Wade sheppard explain it better than I did

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The myth of China’s ghost cities
By Wade Shepard
April 22, 2015

thamesvillage

Thames Town, near Shanghai, China. REUTERS/Courtesy of Wade Shepard

Ghost towns tend to start as boomtowns, and contemporary China more than likely has more boomtowns than any other country in history. No economy has ever risen so rapidly and no place has ever built so much so quickly. This rapid growth has resulted in peculiar side effect: ghost cities, everywhere.

Although the term “ghost town” is technically a misnomer in this case. A ghost town is a place that has become economically defunct — in other words, a place that has died. What China has is the opposite of ghost towns: It has new cities that have yet to come to life.

There are nearly 600 more cities in China now than there were when the Communist Party took over in 1949. This large-scale urban transition began in the early 1980s, when rural areas began being rezoned as urban en masse and the city took center stage in China’s plans for the future. In the early 2000s this urbanization movement was kicked into high gear. New urban developments began popping up seemingly everywhere — along the outskirts of existing cities as well as in the previously undeveloped expanses between them. Many cities doubled or even tripled their size within relatively short spans of time. In just 15 years Shanghai alone grew sevenfold and its population increased to more than 23 million from 6.61 million.
italiantown

Pujiang’s Italian-style New Town, near Shanghai. REUTERS/Courtesy of Wade Shepard

China’s broader urbanization movement shouldn’t be thought of as a developmental free-for-all. There is a method behind all of this building and an overarching framework. Ten massive new urban conglomerations called mega-regions have been proposed in strategic locations across the country. These are essentially city clusters of 22 million to more than 100 million people each that are to be connected through infrastructure, economically, and, potentially, even politically.

China’s fiscal policy all but requires local municipalities to comply with this broader urbanization plan. According to the World Bank, local municipalities must fend for 80 percent of their expenses while only receiving 40 percent of the country’s tax revenue. Land sales make up much of the difference, resulting in a buy low, sell high scheme, as municipalities buy up cheap rural land, re-designate it as urban, and then resell it at the high urban construction land rate — pocketing the difference. According to China’s Ministry of Finance, land sales raised $438 billion for China’s local governments in 2012 alone.

When developers purchase these new plots of land, they are prohibited by law from sitting on them. They must build something. While it is commonly thought that getting in on a new development zone early is key to making a big profit, these areas tend to lie far outside the bounds of mature, built-up urban areas. This often means constructing vast apartment complexes, giant malls and commercial streets in places that do not yet have much of a population base to support them.

Building a new city from the ground up is a long-term initiative, a process that China estimates takes roughly 17 to 23 years. By 2020, Ordos Kangbashi plans to have 300,000 people, Nanhui expects to attract 800,000 residents and 5 million people are slated to live in Zhengdong New District. China’s new cities are just that: new.
newsouthchinamall

The South China Mall, in Guangdong province, is the largest in the world, but it’s mostly empty. REUTERS/Courtesy of Wade Shepard

There is hardly a single new urban development in the country that has yet gone over its estimated time line for completion and vitalization, so any ghost city labeling at this point is premature: Most are still works in progress. But while building the core areas of new cities is something that China does with incredible haste, actually populating them is a lengthy endeavor.

When large numbers of people move into a new area, they need to be provided for; they need public services like healthcare and education. Therefore, a population carries a price tag and there is often an extended period of time between when cities appear completed and when they are actually prepared to sustain a full-scale population. This could be called the “ghost city” phase.

Most large new urban developments in China eventually move through this phase and become vitalized with businesses and a population. Essential infrastructure gets built, shopping malls open, and places where residents can work are created. In many of the biggest new cities, new university campuses will emerge and government offices and the headquarters of banks and state owned enterprises will be shipped in, essentially seeding these fresh outposts of progress with thousands of new consumers. From here, more businesses are attracted — often drawn by favorable subsidies like free rent — and more people trickle in as the city comes to life.

Some of China’s most notorious ghost cities saw phenomenal population growth in recent years, according to a report by Standard Chartered. In just a two year period from 2012 to 2014, Zhengdong New District’s occupancy rate rose doubled, while Dantu’s quadrupled and Changzhou’s Wujin district increased to 50 percent from 20 percent. Though there is still an excess of vacancies in these places, when urban areas of high-density housing are even half full there’s still a large number of people living there — more than enough for the place to socially and economically function as a city.

It generally takes at least a decade for China’s new urban developments to start breaking the inertia of stagnation. But once they do, they tend to keep growing, eventually blending in with the broader urban landscape and losing their “ghost city” label.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
An interesting tidbit about that Thames Town near Shanghai. I took my wedding pictures there.

The place is not real. It's a tourist gimmick. There are a few real store fronts here and there, but all those buildings are like something out of a movie set. The doors and windows were fake, and the scale was just slightly smaller than real buildings. It's a pretty small place, literally only one square kilometres. Wikipedia says it was "designed for 10,000 people". Gotta laugh at that one. Even 100 people wouldn't be able to actually live there.

I would think of it more as a public theme park, where Chinese people can see European architecture without leaving their home.
 

solarz

Brigadier
The Chinese "New City" initiatives make perfect economic sense. Why build an apartment here and there when you can take advantage of the economies of scale, and build an entire city at once? These kinds of things are simply not done in the west because no one, public or private, has the vision or initiative to undertake such projects.

This is why people in the west cannot wrap their heads around the concept and call these initiatives "ghost cities". They cannot fathom that a country can have the economic resources to build entire cities at a time, and the human resources to fill them up in a few years. In the west, if the government finances a sports stadium and it operates under-capacity in the first few years, that government will get lambasted for "wasting tax-payer money".

Western societies have become so myopic and penny-pinching, it has forgotten the meaning of progress. I found a laughable quote from a Via Rail executive who said High Speed Rail doesn't make sense for Canada because we don't have that kind of ridership numbers.

Well duh, Via trains are slow, unreliable, and stupidly expensive. Why would anybody ride them if they could drive instead?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Western societies have become so myopic and penny-pinching, it has forgotten the meaning of progress. I found a laughable quote from a Via Rail executive who said High Speed Rail doesn't make sense for Canada because we don't have that kind of ridership numbers.

Well duh, Via trains are slow, unreliable, and stupidly expensive. Why would anybody ride them if they could drive instead?

The only HSR route that make sense is Montreal-Toronto line. they should not have trouble building since it is mostly flat land with no major river or swamp. Yup VIA line is slow.
 

solarz

Brigadier
The only HSR route that make sense is Montreal-Toronto line. they should not have trouble building since it is mostly flat land with no major river or swamp. Yup VIA line is slow.

The Montreal-Toronto corridor contains roughly half of Canada's population. It boggles the mind that anyone could think an HSR between the country's two largest cities would not be a good idea.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Ghost town is a myth . There is some misunderstanding in the west about ghost town. Wade Sheppard is the one that first who wrote about ghost town . But even he now concede that the ghost town is a myth.

They are filling fast. There is lag between when the housing part of a new city finish and the supporting infrastructure of transportation, schooling, business district etc completed . That give it appearance of ghost town .People are not going to move to a new city when there is no infrastructure.

The second part is governing planing . It is better to built city first and move people latter than the other way around . That explain the lack of slum in China . So The government mandated city or town to built new city to anticipate for population growth.
Since the city finance is from the sale of real estate there is incentive to buy land cheap built it and sell it at high price Wade sheppard explain it better than I did

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The myth of China’s ghost cities
By Wade Shepard
April 22, 2015

thamesvillage

Thames Town, near Shanghai, China. REUTERS/Courtesy of Wade Shepard

Ghost towns tend to start as boomtowns, and contemporary China more than likely has more boomtowns than any other country in history. No economy has ever risen so rapidly and no place has ever built so much so quickly. This rapid growth has resulted in peculiar side effect: ghost cities, everywhere.

Although the term “ghost town” is technically a misnomer in this case. A ghost town is a place that has become economically defunct — in other words, a place that has died. What China has is the opposite of ghost towns: It has new cities that have yet to come to life.

There are nearly 600 more cities in China now than there were when the Communist Party took over in 1949. This large-scale urban transition began in the early 1980s, when rural areas began being rezoned as urban en masse and the city took center stage in China’s plans for the future. In the early 2000s this urbanization movement was kicked into high gear. New urban developments began popping up seemingly everywhere — along the outskirts of existing cities as well as in the previously undeveloped expanses between them. Many cities doubled or even tripled their size within relatively short spans of time. In just 15 years Shanghai alone grew sevenfold and its population increased to more than 23 million from 6.61 million.
italiantown

Pujiang’s Italian-style New Town, near Shanghai. REUTERS/Courtesy of Wade Shepard

China’s broader urbanization movement shouldn’t be thought of as a developmental free-for-all. There is a method behind all of this building and an overarching framework. Ten massive new urban conglomerations called mega-regions have been proposed in strategic locations across the country. These are essentially city clusters of 22 million to more than 100 million people each that are to be connected through infrastructure, economically, and, potentially, even politically.

China’s fiscal policy all but requires local municipalities to comply with this broader urbanization plan. According to the World Bank, local municipalities must fend for 80 percent of their expenses while only receiving 40 percent of the country’s tax revenue. Land sales make up much of the difference, resulting in a buy low, sell high scheme, as municipalities buy up cheap rural land, re-designate it as urban, and then resell it at the high urban construction land rate — pocketing the difference. According to China’s Ministry of Finance, land sales raised $438 billion for China’s local governments in 2012 alone.

When developers purchase these new plots of land, they are prohibited by law from sitting on them. They must build something. While it is commonly thought that getting in on a new development zone early is key to making a big profit, these areas tend to lie far outside the bounds of mature, built-up urban areas. This often means constructing vast apartment complexes, giant malls and commercial streets in places that do not yet have much of a population base to support them.

Building a new city from the ground up is a long-term initiative, a process that China estimates takes roughly 17 to 23 years. By 2020, Ordos Kangbashi plans to have 300,000 people, Nanhui expects to attract 800,000 residents and 5 million people are slated to live in Zhengdong New District. China’s new cities are just that: new.
newsouthchinamall

The South China Mall, in Guangdong province, is the largest in the world, but it’s mostly empty. REUTERS/Courtesy of Wade Shepard

There is hardly a single new urban development in the country that has yet gone over its estimated time line for completion and vitalization, so any ghost city labeling at this point is premature: Most are still works in progress. But while building the core areas of new cities is something that China does with incredible haste, actually populating them is a lengthy endeavor.

When large numbers of people move into a new area, they need to be provided for; they need public services like healthcare and education. Therefore, a population carries a price tag and there is often an extended period of time between when cities appear completed and when they are actually prepared to sustain a full-scale population. This could be called the “ghost city” phase.

Most large new urban developments in China eventually move through this phase and become vitalized with businesses and a population. Essential infrastructure gets built, shopping malls open, and places where residents can work are created. In many of the biggest new cities, new university campuses will emerge and government offices and the headquarters of banks and state owned enterprises will be shipped in, essentially seeding these fresh outposts of progress with thousands of new consumers. From here, more businesses are attracted — often drawn by favorable subsidies like free rent — and more people trickle in as the city comes to life.

Some of China’s most notorious ghost cities saw phenomenal population growth in recent years, according to a report by Standard Chartered. In just a two year period from 2012 to 2014, Zhengdong New District’s occupancy rate rose doubled, while Dantu’s quadrupled and Changzhou’s Wujin district increased to 50 percent from 20 percent. Though there is still an excess of vacancies in these places, when urban areas of high-density housing are even half full there’s still a large number of people living there — more than enough for the place to socially and economically function as a city.

It generally takes at least a decade for China’s new urban developments to start breaking the inertia of stagnation. But once they do, they tend to keep growing, eventually blending in with the broader urban landscape and losing their “ghost city” label.

You must be kidding many of those providence officials were caught, admitting they had been cooking their books for years.
A building that had been vacant and untended is basically infested with weeds that warps the structure making it unsafe for human occupation.
You people never learn do you.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
You must be kidding many of those providence officials were caught, admitting they had been cooking their books for years.
A building that had been vacant and untended is basically infested with weeds that warps the structure making it unsafe for human occupation.
You people never learn do you.
Did you even read his article or are you just desperate to paint China in a bad light in any way that it blinds you from the truth?
 

solarz

Brigadier
You must be kidding many of those providence officials were caught, admitting they had been cooking their books for years.
A building that had been vacant and untended is basically infested with weeds that warps the structure making it unsafe for human occupation.
You people never learn do you.

Did you even read his article or are you just desperate to paint China in a bad light in any way that it blinds you from the truth?

It's pretty obvious that he didn't.

FYI, @SamuraiBlue, my mom has a property in Kunshan, on the outskirts of Shanghai, that she bought 5 years ago. It's been vacant since, but we check it everytime we go back.

Nope, no weeds infesting the building.

Seriously, if they can afford to build entire cities, you don't think they can hire a few guys to do basic maintenance on the buildings?
 

vesicles

Colonel
You must be kidding many of those providence officials were caught, admitting they had been cooking their books for years.
A building that had been vacant and untended is basically infested with weeds that warps the structure making it unsafe for human occupation.
You people never learn do you.

Who says the buildings will have weeds and other infestations? They have been well-maintained. As many have been trying to convey here, these buildings in the supposed "ghost towns" are not abandoned and neglected. They are simply in the stage of transitioning from development to usage. It is taking longer than typically seen in the West because the scale of the development is so much larger. So while in this transitioning stage, all the development has been well-maintained by the developers as this is still their investment.

My in-laws had an apartment unit that is located in one of those "ghost towns" between 2012 and 2015. The building was built in 2012 and was in excellent shape when they sold it last year. It took the developers and the city several years to get all the permits and licenses and stuff done before people were allowed to move / buy / sell, etc. All the units in their entire building was sold out in 3 days when they were put on the market.

Before their district went on sale, it had been literally a ghost town for almost 4 years. I saw the photos myself. They got all the empty buildings, empty streets, empty malls and stores, etc. However, it's not because no one wanted to buy them. It was all the legal issues and logistics, etc. My in-laws had been getting emails, phone calls and text messages for offers for years. People had been literally waiting in line to buy and move in. However, nothing could be done without all the permits and stuff. As soon as all the legal stuff had been taken care, people wasted no time grabbing units. One of my in-laws' best friends decided to move into the new unit instead of selling it. In their last Skype conversation, their buddy complained that they had to wait 45 minutes to get into a restaurant in their new neighborhood... So I guess they are no longer a ghost town...
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
You must be kidding many of those providence officials were caught, admitting they had been cooking their books for years.
A building that had been vacant and untended is basically infested with weeds that warps the structure making it unsafe for human occupation.
You people never learn do you.
That's another desperate sadblue comment for the books.

"You can't not live in a modern building in the city because in a few years weeds will warp the steel and concrete making it unsafe."

LOLOL Are these military-grade weeds? Or maybe weeds that grew up on Fukushima water? LOL Maybe you think so because it happens to buildings made to Japanese standards hahaha
2781e95192610bcb8ecac7f87f1081e3_dying-laughing-meme-memes-356-dying-laughing-meme_356-310.jpeg
 
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