Chinese Economics Thread

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
So now the Diplomat is advocating communism? Gotta distribute the wealth of the Chinese rich. This is the typical tactic where any problem that is criticized in the West, its problems and coined language are then transferred to China in order to deflect and divert attention away from the problem at home. I thought the stereotype is the state owns everything in China. Remember how even "private" companies in China are fronts for the government. Now China is fully capitalist to then charge that 1% owns 1/3rd the wealth. I guess one can spin that the state is 1%. Since China has gone through the highest growth in standard of living in human history in such a short period of time, their 1% are doing a lot better job for China overall.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Not if you find a tax shelter and hide your $$$!:p:D:cool:

My sister who lives in AUS told me that this is exactly what is happening to them. They work their butts off and end up losing 40-50% to taxes. It's very disheartening.

Compared to that, what we have in the States is still much better. Most Americans still have to work hard to get what they want. There is some free lunch, but not much. My sister and her husband came to visit us in the States several years ago. They were constantly amazed how hard most Americans work. A simple example: on their first night in Houston, they landed at ~9:30pm. So after picking them up at IAH, I took them to a Sushi place near downtown. They couldn't stop saying how amazing it was to able to find a place to eat that late at night. I couldn't understand why they were so surprised. They then told me that most restaurants in the AUS close after 7-8pm. You simply couldn't find place to eat at night. On the other hand, most restaurants in the States open until late at night.

I think it's still a good balance between rewarding the hard-working vs dishing out free stuff. Is it perfect? No! But much better than what is happening elsewhere.

welll ...... opening a business (restaurant) late night is not a sign of how hard they work, it's simply a demand push ... Aus and NZ have small population, so the demand is not as high as in the US ... if there is no demand why would you open until late night.

I don't believe Americans work harder than NZer ... I think roughly we work as hard. You can't compare NZer on dole to American .... its simply no comparison (NZ/Aus are really good in benefit while in the US hardly any). But if you compare a professional from NZ to the US ... you will find they have similar work ethic .. work hard
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
How many of China's 1% are Communist Party members? Maybe a better question to ask is how many of them aren't?

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Better question is how many Chinese has to bail out their 1%ers misgivings like here in America worth in the Trillions of dollars? These media rhetoric with their "Do as I said, not what I do" are getting desperately pathetic. Remember China has a continuing growing middle class with increase in wages while the opposite is happening here in the states.
 

Qi_1528

New Member
Registered Member
A couple of questions.

Why would the Warren Buffet types require a universal basic income
Would it apply to women who voluntarily give their jobs or never had a job to keep home and raise a family.

Sorry for the slow reply.

There should be an option to voluntarily give up the UBI if a person chooses to do so, conversely, if some who surrendered it wants to receive it again because of newfound economic hardship, it should be made easy to apply. It would be ideal if there was a cut off for people above a certain income, but this would require people to report their earnings, and part of the idea of a UBI is to reduce bureaucracy as much as possible. The costs and benefits would need to be weighed up.

Everyone should receive an income regardless of what they do, even children, except in their case, the ubi would go into a nominated account for the parents to manage until the child reaches adulthood. Irresponsible parents would have to be dealt with, just as they are in many countries today.

I have problems with the principle that you should only get paid if you work. It's old fashioned thinking which is going to be forced to change by technological advancement. Firstly, money these days is completely imaginary. It seems crazy to deprive people who don't or can't work of the ability to live comfortably over something imaginary. The only practical reason for money to exist presently is because of scarcity, and there's a good chance that won't be a major problem for too much longer.

Secondly automation is reducing the possibilities for gainful employment. The rise of the service sector has offset this trend to a degree, but a lot of those jobs don't pay very well, and are not secure. The combination of robotics and software is beginning to make this offset insufficient to prevent rising unemployment.

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In the not very distant future, there will be a large proportion of working age people who can't find any work, let alone work they can survive on, no matter how much they want it. With no income, they will starve, turn to crime, or outright revolt. Furthermore, people without money can't consume, and modern capitalism requires consumption to remain stable. The only way I can see to maintain social and economic stability is to create a UBI people can live on. You can try to resist automation, or create jobs with no real purpose (as apparently happened in the USSR), but I doubt either strategy can stem the tide.

The one main argument (aside from the cost) I have seen against UBI's is that it would discourage people to find useful work, but this hasn't proven to be the case in places it's been trialed. For example:

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"We have much more analysis to do, but as the conference showed the story is fairly clear. Before mentioning a few findings, note that contrary to some assertions, a majority did not prefer subsidies (covering rice, wheat, kerosene and sugar), and as a result of the experience of basic incomes more came to prefer cash to subsidies. Eleven results stand out.
.........................
7. Contrary to the skeptics, the grants led to more labor and work (figure 2). But the story is nuanced. There was a shift from casual wage labor to more own-account (self-employed) farming and business activity, with less distress-driven out-migration. Women gained more than men."

Some people would choose to remain fairly idle, and quite frankly, so what? They are benefiting society and the economy as long as they are consuming. Others (most people I suspect) would want to do something to feel useful and give their lives meaning, be that turning to art, science, other intellectual pursuits, getting one of the few remaining jobs, or starting their own business.
 
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Qi_1528

New Member
Registered Member
Better question is how many Chinese has to bail out their 1%ers misgivings like here in America worth in the Trillions of dollars? These media rhetoric with their "Do as I said, not what I do" are getting desperately pathetic. Remember China has a continuing growing middle class with increase in wages while the opposite is happening here in the states.

That's true, but income inequality is overall a progressively worsening problem in China. It needs to be addressed, If only to maintain social stability. People who have read Chinese history will know that there have been revolts over the perceived excesses of the rich, while most everyone else is struggling to get by.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
They then told me that most restaurants in the AUS close after 7-8pm. You simply couldn't find place to eat at night. On the other hand, most restaurants in the States open until late at night.
Where does your Sister and Husband live in Australia that they can’t find a Restaurant after 7/8pm?.

Most of the better restaurants in Melbourne and Sydney, in Australia and Auckland in NZ keep similar hours and operate in much the same way. There is a trend not to take bookings while the very very high class ones still do. The other restaurants operate on a first come basis. There is a choice of eating styles. There’s the traditional restaurant, restaurant bars and bars which are sometime referred to as pubs where you can get a steak fries and salad for about $23. The other type of eating establishments offer two sessions. 5-8pm and 8-11pm and its best to the restaurant manager you want a table about 30 minutes before the schedule session times for the popular restaurants.

All in All most migrants bring their eating and lifestyles with them.Nothing demonstrates this better East and South East asians where eating and tea houses, milk bars keep hours that cater to their needs.

One disdain habit creeping into the hospitality trade as a result of the many migrants from the developing world are the exploitative “zero hour contracts” seem mainly in the fast food chains. Where one signs a contract to make themselves available to work but they are not given any set days or hours of work and one cannot work for anyone else despite the fact that one may be getting only 2 or less days’ work a week.

A lot of people I talk to miss the 5-6 day working week. With retail shops having to open 7 days a week, it can be very tiring with little family life for small retail owners. I have a friend who works for a Canadian Software Development Co as a programmer. As long as he gets the work done, he starts and finishes when he feels like it.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I agree on principle, but I also believe women having babies plus their proper education and upbringing are fundamental requirements of strong nations, so I'm for large tax credits for employed women to exit the workforce and have babies. I also believe homemakers are grossly undervalued these days, and they should receive large tax incentives to stay home and raise children.

While I applaud the sentiment, I think your suggested solution is unfortunately a terrible idea that will have the opposite effect to the one you want (valuing the contribution of women more and giving them a fairer deal).

Women are already disadvantaged in the workplace by biology and social norms. Applying such a tax incentive will make them more disadvantaged not less as its another big incentive for women to sacrifice their careers in order to bring up children.

I think maternity leave should actually be cut to only the length of time it is medically necessary for a woman to have and recover from child birth until they can return to work.

So rather than the current 9-12 months+, I would cut maternity leave to say 1 month, with a new paid 9-12 month paternity leave offered to the household, with either mom or dad able to draw upon it as they see fit.

I see the key to bring true (or the truest possible given biological facts) gender equality in the workplace and unlocking the full potential of the female working population as to change current norms where women are expected and incentivised to leave the workforce for prolonged periods of time that will negative impact on their professional careers, and instead spread that burden more evenly to the fathers of the world as well.

If men and women take the same amount of time off work to bring up children, childcare costs and career impacts between genders are made even to employers, thus effectively removing that from the equation when considering candidates for positions.

Given reality, I would even go as far as to build in some time limited affirmative action rules into the new paternity leave rules to help aid and speed up changing social norms and expections. So for the first 20-30 years, I would hard cap the paid paternity leave as 1 month maternity + 2 months paternity for mom and 6 months paternity for dad or something similar depending on what the experts and number crunchers work out.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
In welfare, I advocate for a universal basic income. And by basic, I mean enough to live on reasonably comfortably if you don't have a job. Everyone will get this amount regardless of if they have a job or not. It would replace most forms of welfare which presently exist, greatly reducing bureaucracy. Some argue this would discourage people from looking for work, but that hasn't been the case in places it's been trialed so far. Finland is considering a national level trial.

How are you going to pay for this? Even at full employment, the working population is always going to be significantly smaller than the total because of non-working people like children, retired people, and those physically or mentally unable to work.

Generally a working/total population of 70% is considered good and below 50% poor.

Let's take 50% as an example for the sake of making the maths easier, and assume a balanced government budget before this new basic income, where tax revenue equals government expenditure. but the principles are the same irrespective of what actual numbers you use.

So in our example, every worker supports one non-working member of the population.

To pay everyone in the population a basic income of 10,000 per year means the workers need to be taxed 20,000. The workers then get 10,000 back, making them 10,000 worse off at the end of if. That's assuming perfectly efficient tax collection and redistribution, which is never going to happen.

So to fund this basic income, a new tax slightly more than the value of the basic income need to be applied to every worker on top of the taxes they are already paying.

Whatever the number of a liveable income is, how many of us can afford to pay that as an additional tax?

Even if you apply progressive tax rates for higher earners it won't ever add up, as that will create massive disincentives to work and a likely mass exodus of your top earners.

You can only undertake such a programme if you are running a massive balance surplus, either by have a vast amount of accumulated national wealth earning you huge investment and interest incomes and/or vast natural resource reserves.

But no matter the source of the extra money to fund this giveaway, it could be far better used doing something more productive.

I'm convinced it will pay dividends for national economies in the long term, as automation drives unemployment progressively higher. Imagine an economy with 50% or more of the working age population unable to get work (or enough work). Crime would shoot up, and consumption would be hit massively. A decent UBI is the only way I can see of avoiding this problem over the coming decades.

A country with 50% of the working population unemployed is pretty much collapsed already and a failed state.

As automation increases, people learn new skills and get new jobs higher up the value chain. So rather than assemble a produce, they are now designing it.

Education, improving productivity and changing jobs is how people remain employed in the modernising world.

Compared to even 50 years ago, the amount of automation in everyday life now is incomprehensible to the people back then. Has employment rates dropped off a cliff?

New technologies and developments creates as many new jobs as the destroys old ones. Employment will only skyrocket if a government and populous fails to adapt to the changing world to take advantage of the new opportunities created by moving up the value chain and end up trying to compete directly with new machines and technology as their own wages increase.

Developing economies can get away with lower tech levels because their wages are sufficiently low as to make it more economy to still use people as opposed to investing in machines.

Through growth, development, education and inflation, as average wages goes up, at some point the scales tip and it becomes cheaper to invest in machines rather than continue paying higher wages.

That is when an economy approaches the 'middle income trap' becomes a possibility if that government and economy failed to invest enough in its infrastructure and human resources through education and training and move up the value chain to compete for jobs higher up the value chain with developed economies.

This of course needs a strong tax income to prevent unsustainable deficits (government should run a consistent small deficit to create new money, but that's a different discussion), and I agree with those advocating for large scale tax reform. Personal income and most consumption taxes need to be phased out, while corporations should to be highly taxed. Not directly on their income, but on the use of things such as land and resources. Taxes on things such as pollution are a good idea too. Those which which benefit from automation particularly need to be taxed, not to discourage automation, but to compensate the public for lost job opportunities.

Not going to work. Corporations will just pass on any unavoidable taxes onto the consumers, fueling inflation, or they will simply pack up and leave your country if you squeeze their profits too much or even go out of business if they cannot do that.
 

Franklin

Captain
This Bloomberg article confirms what I said about the Chinese economy.

There's Good News Buried in China's Export Drop

Three charts to cheer Chinese exporters.

While Chinese exports shrunk for the first time in six years in 2015, some bright spots are buried beneath the otherwise dour headline number, according to research from Fielding Chen and Tom Orlik of Bloomberg Intelligence.

"Looking beyond that headline figure, there are signs that export competitiveness remains resilient, the share of domestic value added is growing and the export mix is shifting toward high-technology products," they said in a recent report. "All of that is positive for the 2016 outlook. Concerns about weak demand from emerging markets and data reliability cloud the picture."

1. China is taking a bigger slice of the global export market.

Although Chinese exports shrunk last year, they are still outpacing global imports, which means that the country's share of the world market continues to rise. Chen and Orlik said this points to weak global demand, rather than a lack of Chinese competitiveness. If global demand picks up in 2016, then "China should enjoy the benefits," they added.

2. It is exporting more computers and fewer clothes.

China is exporting fewer clothing items but more "high-technology" pieces. That might be bad news for such commodities as cotton, but it's good news for the overall Chinese economy as sales of clothes and accessories—"poster-child products for China's vanishing sweat shops" as Chen and Orlik put it— fell 6.4 percent from the previous year.

3. China is making the shift to higher value-added exports.

A move toward higher value-added exports such as technology products could mean a boost to China's overall growth, even as the headline export figure decreases. "In 2015, close to 70 cents of each dollar in overseas sales represented domestic value added. ...That’s up from about 50 cents in 2006," the analysts said. "A higher share for domestic value added means that even as headline exports shrink, they continue to make a positive contribution to growth."

Still, as with many Chinese data points, there are reasons to question official export numbers.

As Chen and Orlik pointed out, China's data on exports to Hong Kong should align with data from Hong Kong on imports from China. That hasn't been the case—especially recently.

"It’s not clear whether that reflects over-invoicing by China’s factories, data manipulation by officials, or a statistical anomaly, but it makes tracking trade trends tough to do," Chen and Orlik noted in their piece.

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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
So rather than the current 9-12 months+, I would cut maternity leave to say 1 month, with a new paid 9-12 month paternity leave offered to the household, with either mom or dad able to draw upon it as they see fit.

That's the Canadian system now, mom and dad can divide the 12 month paid leave between them anyway they like
 
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