Chinese Economics Thread

MortyandRick

Senior Member
Registered Member
One interesting observation I've found browsing through the IMF's April 2024 World Economic Outlook statistics is this:
In terms of nominal GDP at current prices, the US-China gap is actually widening the US' lead and China's GDP has essentially plateaued since 2021 up to the IMF's estimated 2024 GDP. One click away onto the PPP GDP at current prices figures show that the China-US gap is actually widening China's lead.

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It used to be said that China will surpass the US in the much vaunted nominal GDP statistic, allowing China to boast the title of "world's largest economy." Now that seems to be further away, yet in the, apparently parallel, universe of PPP, it is China that is actually pulling away from the US. To see that, past the financialization and into the more material economic calculus of PPP data, China is consolidating its position as the largest economy should be a rather satisfactory "consolation prize."

The truth is that none of this ever really mattered from a practical basis. You could actually see, a few years back, a barrage of journal articles and news pieces arguing that GDP was an outdated metric. This was obvious psychological preparation to prime the Western audience into dismissing the eventual demotion of the US in nominal GDP terms. It was also obvious that the day before this demotion, the mass media was going to endorse a new "democracy" and "human rights" inclusive metric just like they already did with HDI once it became clear that China was skyrocketing up the HDI rankings. The long anticipated headlines would have then ended up as "China surpasses US using outdated economic metric," "Chinese state media propaganda celebrates number one status in economic metric that excludes democratic freedom," "China is now number one, so what?" Western chauvinism would have never allowed China to claim the currently existing prestige of the title they use to fawn over the US in the first place.

So I think at times, it is important to keep in mind the wider picture of things. The reason why it didn't matter because by historical GDP estimates, China had already once been the number one economy: during the Qing dynasty.
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Then the Opium Wars smashed open China's front door and then all of those stats evaporated in the Century of Humiliation. British gunboats didn't turn around because Lin Zexu shouted, "Stop, you're attacking the world's largest economy!" That fact itself was what incentivized them to bombard Qing China into submission. The Taiping rebels didn't drop their pitchforks and go home because Qing officials berated them "for rebelling when Qing China was the world's largest economy" either.

Economic growth only matters if it is funnelled into the proper sectors like industry, manufacturing and research and when the entirety of society receives the dividends. It additionally only matters when the state is able to defend itself, otherwise you're just a tempting looking treasure chest waiting for the lock to get smashed open. That is to state the obvious but this fundamental deficit was why Qing China was the world's largest economy and then was subsequently beaten into the ground by imperialism and then overthrown and torn apart by its own disaffected people. This is why aiming for the same title again doesn't ultimately matter: Taiwan isn't going to be handed back just because you're now "top nominal GDP," the US military bases dotting the First Island Chain aren't going to pack up their bags because of it either. Nor are the Chinese people ever going to be treated with true respect or as genuine equals by the West or even the chauvinistic political class in South Korea and Japan because of that.

What matters isn't whether China outperforms its own past economic record but whether it outperforms everyone else in the relevant aspects. What matters is that sectors like manufacturing maintain its share of the economy and that the average quality of life and the material conditions of the Chinese economy is maintained and expanded, as PPP GDP figures attest. Beyond all that, what matters most is that the sight of the forest is never lost for the trees: any situation is salvageable so long as China maintains its sovereignty and defends the dignity of the Chinese people as the USSR under the CPSU's last leadership ultimately failed to do.

While trite and seeming tangential, it's important to emphasize the obvious because that obvious thing was precisely what China once lacked when it had nearly everything else. Above all, the preservation of true sovereignty is what is most important, as the lessons of China's past fall from the literal top and the tortured experience of the post-USSR region show. Given a choice of Qing China with the statistical feat of the "world's largest economy" and China in the 1950s, deeply economically impoverished and recovering from a century of hardship and war, yet finally sovereign once again, and the latter would be far preferable every time. So far, all these conditions are being accomplished and so, as long as these things are remembered and maintained in China, it is not at all undue to maintain some high optimism.
Completely agree.
GDP calculations, especially nominal GDP calculations have always been a sham. I mean if you look at the calculations, an active cancer patient adds more to he GDP than a chip designer or a software engineer or a plumber.

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GDP doesn't really measure wealth or productivity. It's used to measure mainly manufacturing. Doesn't measure services well. Efficient service actually decreases the GDP as it cuts out the middle man. Etc.

Is suspect that's why the Chinese government leaves out a lot of stuff from their GDP calculations, a lot of services don't add anything of value to the economy but pads the GDP.
 

zbb

Junior Member
Registered Member
Another article about China's so called "overcapacity" and "weak consumption" with some interesting use of statistics.
  • China's manufacturing production is 35% of the global total, which is more than the next 9 countries combined.
  • China's manufacturing export is 20% of the global total while the next 9 countries combined accounts for 40% of the global total.
In other words, while the next 9 countries combined produces less than China, they export twice as much as China! Somehow, that means China is the one with overcapacity and weak domestic consumption!

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China’s relevance as a manufacturing hub has risen from about 5% of global manufacturing production in 1995 to about 35% in 2020. At that level, China dominates global production and global value added. Its production share was higher in 2022 than that of the next nine largest manufacturing countries in the world combined, including the US, Japan and Germany. China gained this immense dominance over time at the expense of these other countries. In 1995, the aforementioned nine countries still commanded about two-thirds of global manufacturing production; by 2020, their share decreased to just one-third.
When considering global manufacturing exports, China also commands a higher share than any other country, with around 20% in 2020. All other major exporters have individual shares of much less than 10%. The next nine largest exporters in 2020 account for 40% of global manufacturing exports. This share continuously declined from close to 60% in 1995, while China’s share rose more than sixfold from about 3% in 1995.
 

Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
One interesting observation I've found browsing through the IMF's April 2024 World Economic Outlook statistics is this:
In terms of nominal GDP at current prices, the US-China gap is actually widening the US' lead and China's GDP has essentially plateaued since 2021 up to the IMF's estimated 2024 GDP. One click away onto the PPP GDP at current prices figures show that the China-US gap is actually widening China's lead.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It used to be said that China will surpass the US in the much vaunted nominal GDP statistic, allowing China to boast the title of "world's largest economy." Now that seems to be further away, yet in the, apparently parallel, universe of PPP, it is China that is actually pulling away from the US. To see that, past the financialization and into the more material economic calculus of PPP data, China is consolidating its position as the largest economy should be a rather satisfactory "consolation prize."
This is illogical.

Neither China nor US can surpass eachother in "nominal" gdp, because it is a non-comparative measurement with multiple different currencies.

Nominal means the activity inside the country: which for China means their nominal gdp is in CNY while US' is in USD. To compare them, you need to either convert whole Chinese economy to USD, or convert whole US economy to CNY.

What you're saying about this being a "vaunted statistic" is illogical, it is not a comparative statistic at all.

When people talk about gdp ranking, they are doing it based on adjusted gdp, which is after converting all currencies into the same (usually USD).

You can for example compare the nominal GDP of Shanghai with Beijing (as both are already in CNY), but not Shanghai and Moscow.
The truth is that none of this ever really mattered from a practical basis. You could actually see, a few years back, a barrage of journal articles and news pieces arguing that GDP was an outdated metric. This was obvious psychological preparation to prime the Western audience into dismissing the eventual demotion of the US in nominal GDP terms. It was also obvious that the day before this demotion, the mass media was going to endorse a new "democracy" and "human rights" inclusive metric just like they already did with HDI once it became clear that China was skyrocketing up the HDI rankings. The long anticipated headlines would have then ended up as "China surpasses US using outdated economic metric," "Chinese state media propaganda celebrates number one status in economic metric that excludes democratic freedom," "China is now number one, so what?" Western chauvinism would have never allowed China to claim the currently existing prestige of the title they use to fawn over the US in the first place.

So I think at times, it is important to keep in mind the wider picture of things. The reason why it didn't matter because by historical GDP estimates, China had already once been the number one economy: during the Qing dynasty.
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Then the Opium Wars smashed open China's front door and then all of those stats evaporated in the Century of Humiliation. British gunboats didn't turn around because Lin Zexu shouted, "Stop, you're attacking the world's largest economy!" That fact itself was what incentivized them to bombard Qing China into submission. The Taiping rebels didn't drop their pitchforks and go home because Qing officials berated them "for rebelling when Qing China was the world's largest economy" either.
Gdp is indeed deceptive at modeling the true scope of economy, but being the world's largest economy today has also not hurt China, in fact, it is a benefit because it projects stability and confidence.

Being the no1 economy does not preclude China from continued strong economic performance, nor stop them from using tech/industry advantages that don't show up on gdp to perform gunboat diplomacy on the 2nd largest economy if it really came down to no other options.

China is almost certainly leading US by more than gdp shows. There is however no macroeconimical measure that claims US would lead China.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
China should not claim title of "biggest economy", so enemies underestimate China, overestimate themselves. They will pick fight with China, yes. But the fights will make things better in China, and worse for those who fight.

Once it becomes so obvious to all that China is "actually biggest economy", China can drop the pretense, since there is no more benefit for doing so. By then, China will use reputation of "biggest economy" to rally allies.

But now is not the time. There are still plenty of idiots failing to see China as bigfest. Partly thanks to funny gdp measurements. Keep it that way.
 

Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
China should not claim title of "biggest economy", so enemies underestimate China, overestimate themselves. They will pick fight with China, yes. But the fights will make things better in China, and worse for those who fight.

Once it becomes so obvious to all that China is "actually biggest economy", China can drop the pretense, since there is no more benefit for doing so. By then, China will use reputation of "biggest economy" to rally allies.

But now is not the time. There are still plenty of idiots failing to see China as bigfest. Partly thanks to funny gdp measurements. Keep it that way.
They already have, you can't un-claim a statistic measure, anymore than US can not not claim title of having the most prisoners.

However they're not bragging much because it doesn't give anything.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
They already have, you can't un-claim a statistic measure, anymore than US can not not claim title of having the most prisoners.

However they're not bragging much because it doesn't give anything.
I dont see China scream "we are biggest" out loud. And even if China is factually biggest, there are enough misleading stats to hide it, like gdp. Even when China is biggest gdp, people can claim "it is fake data, because (insert cope)". Point is people's perception dont always keep up with hard number.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
I don't think China needs to take the risk. China still benefits from the trade with the west, it's keeping the trade war escalation in a controlled manner.


I do not beblieve that, after this many years of shake and clean up, the Chinese liberals are still influential in decision making at this high level. I would rather think that some special interest groups, like the gallium/rare earth producers, are having more say on the relevant trade policies.
China not taking those risks (there is none BTW) is what have led to Western countries ignoring its sensibilities. There are literally no consequences for ignoring China or tariffing it.

If you have missed, they are literally walling off the developed world against Chinese high-tech goods. It may cost China a trillion USD in export revenues in future. China on the other hand is hesitant to export control raw materials.
 

Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
China not taking those risks (there is none BTW) is what have led to Western countries ignoring its sensibilities. There are literally no consequences for ignoring China or tariffing it.

If you have missed, they are literally walling off the developed world against Chinese high-tech goods. It may cost China a trillion USD in export revenues in future. China on the other hand is hesitant to export control raw materials.
If the case you describe comes into event and trade with the west no longer becomes profitable, it would lead to a surplus of production in China and possibly a surge in unemployment. This would be a beneficial wave to ride in using a war to force the west to open up again. Tons of surplus tech laying around, a new group of unemployed that can be hired for weapon production or military. And in turn, China's enemies will be weakened due to not having access to critical goods.

I think ultimately that will be China's nuclear option.

But what is more likely now is that the West can be gradually politically wrestled into just opening up with, without the need for war. Or some parts of the west will remain globally closed, but divide and conquer can be used to bend away members of the West without going to direct war.
 
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