Chinese Economics Thread

proelite

Junior Member
The final thing I'll say here on this topic for now - is that if you talked to the people in China who have generally have extremely negative sentiment and want to 'run - a majority of them were actually as optimistic (some even more so) as the sentiments shared in this thread on the development of China - they've simply been disappointed too many times.

Majority of people in this forum sit outside of China and as a result have not been "educated by the socialist hammer" as they say - if you lived in China and had to deal with some of the crap (as opposed to visiting family for 2 weeks and being awed by AliPay and EVs) of living there long term. It doesn't take long for you to recognize the difference between what you see from Guancha's Youtube Channel vs. the nuanced reality on the ground.
Show me the data. If you do not, you're just pulling random theories out of your ass.
 

curiouscat

Junior Member
Registered Member
Show me the data. If you do not, you're just pulling random theories out of your ass.



All "volume" data - the fastest segment of logistics growth in China is literally people returning their products. I.E people are ordering 3 things and keeping one and returning the other 2. This is not an indication of confidence. We know export growth has been good and that's why the economy hasn't been worse. As I've said before, this price-based competition is political unfeasible globally. I've got a bridge to sell if you think China can export its way out of domestic weakness while the real estate sector continues to grind lower.



Its a big deal because they recognize the weakness in households. Notwithstanding how deeply unserious of a comment this is. The banking sector profitability is what's necessary to digest all the crappy loans to developers, LGFVs. I don't know if you're DoggyDog on Twitter, but if you are, I don't know what bucket shop of a financial firm you worked in - but you literally have zero understanding of the risks today.

The final thing I'll say here on this topic for now - is that if you talked to the people in China who have generally have extremely negative sentiment and want to 'run - a majority of them were actually as optimistic (some even more so) as the sentiments shared in this thread on the development of China - they've simply been disappointed too many times.

Majority of people in this forum sit outside of China and as a result have not been "educated by the socialist hammer" as they say - if you lived in China and had to deal with some of the crap (as opposed to visiting family for 2 weeks and being awed by AliPay and EVs) of living there long term. It doesn't take long for you to recognize the difference between what you see from Guancha's Youtube Channel vs. the nuanced reality on the ground.
I think the real estate sector is a serious issue but China can definitely export its way out of this mess. The push into the high end of the value chain is going very well and is the main thing offsetting the pain from real estate right now.
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
This is a collection of incorporated entities in Beijing above 5mln RMB in sales - meaning if a restaurant Chain (say Haidilao) had multiple locations, it would be all rolled up in one entity.
Ok, so that likely means there is quite a significant share of the market not captured in those numbers.

And that really doesn't dispute much what I wrote though.

Now do total employment in Beijing.
And?

One likely would also need workforce age and movements, total Beijing population movement, and also workforce hukuo distribution though.

To get an actual deeper and meaningful analysis.
We are talking about nominal numbers - so while real retail sales growth (like yes you can buy more shoes per RMB) is higher, nominally it might be shrinking due to deflation. Yili (Milk) sales are -9% in 1H2024 (-16% in Q2 2024); Mengniu -6% in 1H2024. My premise is based on my argument that deflation is not good.
Your premise is shit.

Just like you write farther in your post, things are mixed.

And its the same for deflation!

Such as, companies reducing prices of their wares due to lower production prices (better production efficiencies or cheaper input materials) is likely in most circumstances a positive thing (a longer term possible negative, was if it say killed competition so that the company became like a monopoly).

And yes, there are also situations where deflation can have more negative over positive influence.

Fair points, my biggest point is that everyone here needs to recognize the "difficult years up ahead". As opposed to dispelling negative datapoints as FUD/Western Propaganda.
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I don't think people have a problem with that.

But at the same time, people have confidence in the Chinese government still being a le to manage and control growth (we likely get that ~5% yearly for quite a while)

Yes there is a need to significantly ramp up childcare support, pension benefits, have the stock markets actually generate returns for the pension fund and the 700mln mutual fund investors in China, etc.
Yea, which is also something the Chinese central government has been saying.

It's a work in progress.

The point I'm making is that families/countries do not become prosperous by cutting costs - they become prosperous by making more money. Wealth generation is contingent on having good products and having people willing to pay high prices for said products.

View attachment 135228

Higher customer delight =/= you getting wealthier - it just means you are giving more value to customers as opposed to keeping what you have to yourself.
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How are they not getting materially wealthier when they can buy more with what they earn?

If the lower costs was more temporary and resulted in the death of companies providing those cheaper stuff, then yes, there would be course of concern.

But we really aren't at the point (or enough data, not to mention we would need to drill deep in each sector) to draw conclusions.

And while profitability is one data point to look at, it's not enough (what is the actual profitability of the companies in the sector? Could it be like the NEV car sector, where BYD and CATL are massively profitable in selling batteries, while smaller and medium NEV car companies are taking losses? Etc.)
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
I think the real estate sector is a serious issue but China can definitely export its way out of this mess. The push into the high end of the value chain is going very well and is the main thing offsetting the pain from real estate right now.
Nah, at China's size, it's not exporting itself out of the issues of the RE sector.

With that said, I'm not all that worried, while there will be a bigger negative drag from the RE sector, more resources and manpower is directed to other sectors.

And also, while the asset value of houses has fallen, it does mean it becomes more akin to a commodity (which is a plus), and like has been said, houses are for living (and not speculation).

There are still many 100 millions of poorer people(migrant workers, rural people etc.) looking to get a new house in urban places or upgrading the older or smaller property they might have.

And for them, it's a major positive that houses are cheaper now (also gonna be nice for future younger people).

Oh, and also, the people speculating in houses (including taking out loans to buy multiple units), well they can get fucked lol.
0 sympathy for them, especially if they still did after "houses was for living" was said (even those before, should have seen it coming).
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
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I don't know where you get 0.15% from.

What you are advocating is for socializing all wealth in China - and this is exactly part of the rationale for businesspeople to behave with such short time horizon in China ("I will make my money and GTFO because if I stay long term the government will take over my wealth because I supposedly do not add productivity").
Russian oligarchs thought the same. End result is Russian GDP is growing, EU GDP is shrinking, and those who bet against Putin lost everything.
This entire negative feedback loop is as follows:

1) Corrupt local official f'over some innocent citizen in cahoot with greedy/asshole businessman (Xu Jiayin);

2) Citizen develops rage and distrust against the system who then decides to pursue short term gains by ripping off customers/cut corners on quality (with intention of emigrating away from China once they make their money);

3) Which generates more distrust/rage from more citizens (ultimately resulting in complete depletion of trust in government) which then causes more people to to pursue short term gains/cut corners, and so on.

The solution is....not to blow up the real estate market and take out entire middle class net worth along with it.

Before some smartass decides to respond with a "ban emigration" - guess what WSJ and BBC are going to do with that policy?

As much as I would like to disagree with the framing in this negative feedback loop, it is increasingly becoming the consensus in China (latest example being the Shandong Land Rover lady who beat a PLA vet because she was driving against traffic and he didn't back down).

Are there positive news? Yes, but as I said, negative news is being magnified and positive news dispelled as short term/one off or unsustainable.
How does #2 work? Random employees that get fucked over don't have the power to do that and not get caught. Anyone that is making low enough money - that is, working for a salary in a job - does not have the power to arbitrarily change product specifications or processes.

If they commit sabotage or are a businessman, then they're not some random 'innocent citizen'. They either hold power (and lost the power struggle) or engaged in an illegal activity. Then it's for the legal system to figure out.

BTW, Shandong land rover lady was arrested. The PLA vet has refused negotiations and is pressing charges.

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现在,自己绝不会放过行凶女子,将拒绝和解,后面肯定会进行行政复议,要把该女子告倒。
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think the real estate sector is a serious issue but China can definitely export its way out of this mess. The push into the high end of the value chain is going very well and is the main thing offsetting the pain from real estate right now.
There is no amount of industry that will work. Since export is industry, export cannot solve this problem either.

Simple thought experiment: what if all of China's technical goals instantly came true? Even if China controlled ASML and all of its revenue was added to China's GDP per capita, it would only increase by ~$50. Airbus? Another ~$50.

In fact, even if the entire US agricultural and industrial GDP was added to China, China's nominal GDP would still be smaller.

This shows the absurdity of nominal GDP.

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The only way to break this is by breaking the system that allows some countries to use paper generated by internal services to import physical products made elsewhere.
 

doggydogdo

Junior Member
Registered Member
Show me the data. If you do not, you're just pulling random theories out of your ass.
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Chinese retirement age is 50-60.

All "volume" data - the fastest segment of logistics growth in China is literally people returning their products. I.E people are ordering 3 things and keeping one and returning the other 2. This is not an indication of confidence. We know export growth has been good and that's why the economy hasn't been worse. As I've said before, this price-based competition is political unfeasible globally. I've got a bridge to sell if you think China can export its way out of domestic weakness while the real estate sector continues to grind lower.
You expect me to believe people returning their products accounted for 28.7% growth in delivery volume? lol

Its a big deal because they recognize the weakness in households. Notwithstanding how deeply unserious of a comment this is. The banking sector profitability is what's necessary to digest all the crappy loans to developers, LGFVs. I don't know if you're DoggyDog on Twitter, but if you are, I don't know what bucket shop of a financial firm you worked in - but you literally have zero understanding of the risks today.
Chinese banking is not the same as banking in other countries. Chinese banks have massive amounts of assets it can use to digest "crappy loans".
Screenshot (117).png

The final thing I'll say here on this topic for now - is that if you talked to the people in China who have generally have extremely negative sentiment and want to 'run - a majority of them were actually as optimistic (some even more so) as the sentiments shared in this thread on the development of China - they've simply been disappointed too many times.

Majority of people in this forum sit outside of China and as a result have not been "educated by the socialist hammer" as they say - if you lived in China and had to deal with some of the crap (as opposed to visiting family for 2 weeks and being awed by AliPay and EVs) of living there long term. It doesn't take long for you to recognize the difference between what you see from Guancha's Youtube Channel vs. the nuanced reality on the ground.
"if you talked to the people in China who have generally have extremely negative sentiment". Most Chinese don't have a negative sentiment though. Most Chinese i know including my family are very optimistic about China's growth, probably even more so now. After the documentaries about Chinese illegal immigrant showed how shitty rest of the world is, many anti-China liberals became less anti-China.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's a self-selection effect. Chinese emigrants are mostly pessimistic / negative about China. That's what made them emigrate, in the first place. Most people here have actually done the 360. They were brought up by Chinese emigrants who hated China and worshipped the West; but through their own experiences, realized the West was no better or even worse.

Any way, it is a fact that life was and probably still is easier in the West. But it's a house of cards, built on generational wealth and power derived from four centuries of colonialism and conquest. That wealth is, at long last, running out - the days of Western hegemony are numbered. But like the Byzantine Empire out lived the Roman Empire, and spent a thousand years more or less stagnant until its conquest at the hands of the Turks, it's not likely that we'll see a sudden collapse of Western power. Rather, it will be a slow and gradual process, with most of its population still convinced they're the superior civilization, even long after the reality of that has faded.
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
Chinese banking is not the same as banking in other countries. Chinese banks have massive amounts of assets it can use to digest "crappy loans".
Screenshot (117).png

You need to go back and retake Remedial Accounting 101. Loans issued by banks *are* assets. The fact that there is a massive pile of assets, is in fact confirming my point that there are a lot of loans issued, a big chunk of which are to mortgagees (38 trln) and developers (10s of trillions) and local government financing vehicles. Bad assets are digested via recognizing provisions for credit losses. You should stop embarrassing yourself.

Most Chinese i know including my family are very optimistic about China's growth, probably even more so now.

The textbook definition of
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You expect me to believe people returning their products accounted for 28.7% growth in delivery volume? lol

So why is e-commerce retail sales growth 8.7% YTD?

Such as, companies reducing prices of their wares due to lower production prices (better production efficiencies or cheaper input materials) is likely in most circumstances a positive thing (a longer term possible negative, was if it say killed competition so that the company became like a monopoly).

Total employment in Beijing was -2.7%. If you believe that this reduction was due to somehow a massive uptick of retirements, show me the work.

Prices are lower yes, but as more companies are going out of business and are hiring less people at lower wages. Lower wages = less consumption = even less revenues = more losses. This is by definition a deflation spiral.

Ok, so that likely means there is quite a significant share of the market not captured in those numbers.

Yes, jianbing stands are not covered, but are you going to tell me you have a way to statistically consolidate the financial results of the jianbing stands all around Beijing? "Nobody Knows" is the correct answer, which does not mean "They are definitely better than the industry which had earnings fall by 90%".

BTW, Shandong land rover lady was arrested. The PLA vet has refused negotiations and is pressing charges.

10 days in the drunk tank and 1000 RMB fine...come on dude that's more lenient than a mosquito bite. The more important question is how this lady had the balls to do this - who was her dad?

Simple thought experiment: what if all of China's technical goals instantly came true? Even if China controlled ASML and all of its revenue was added to China's GDP per capita, it would only increase by ~$50. Airbus? Another ~$50.

Revenues =/= GDP. You cannot do that math without accounting for the multiplier effect.
 
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