Chinese Economics Thread

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
I mean, it is not weird that India is 40% of Chinese size in GDP PPP

India has same or more population than China, all that population working produces economic output.


Total population size can only take you so far. Africa also has the same population as China, yet not many want to invest there much.

I'm not disputing the validity of the GDP PPP, but the Indian numbers there look pretty unrealistic and made-up, hard to verify, to me.

There is no way in hell that they are this close to the US and China, I mean, Japan and Russia are probably economically stronger themselves than India.

Look at how many manufactured exports Japan has, and how few India has, IP, science, etc, Japan is running surpluses with everyone, and India is running deficits. India imports nearly all military equipment (from Russia, the West, even small countries like Israel), etc...

Look at the electricity consumption per capita of India, etc, their hunger levels, child wasting, stunting, undernourishment, literacy rates, and no infrastructure of any kind...

If India was truly the 3rd global economy in power, then where are they manufacturing exports, industrial power, strong MIC, etc?

So not only is the individual quality of life pretty shitty, but as a whole, they are not that powerful as a country as they can't manufacture much.

Do you truly believe this data, how they are 3rd strongest country economically? This has to be either some manipulation or an outlier stat.




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Even Indian economists say that Modi's government doing various manipulations to inflate their GDP artificially (maybe that's why he underperformed in elections, the difference between fiction and reality).


 
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Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
Total population size can only take you so far. Africa also has the same population as China, and where is China, and where are they?

I'm not disputing the validity of the GDP PPP, but the Indian numbers there look pretty unrealistic and made-up, hard to verify, to me.

There is no way in hell that they are this close to the US and China, I mean, Japan and Russia are probably economically stronger themselves than India.

Look at how many manufactured exports Japan has, and how few India has, IP, science, etc, Japan is running surpluses with everyone, and India is running deficits. India imports nearly all military equipment (from Russia, the West, even small countries like Israel), etc...

Look at the electricity consumption per capita of India, etc, their hunger levels, child wasting, stunting, undernourishment, literacy rates, and no infrastructure of any kind...

If India was truly the 3rd global economy in power, then where are they manufacturing exports, industrial power, strong MIC, etc?

So not only is the individual quality of life pretty shitty, but as a whole, they are not that powerful as a country as they can't manufacture much.

Do you truly believe this data, how they are 3rd strongest country economically? This has to be either some manipulation or an outlier stat.



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main-qimg-7b05e6d582152e78f15bd55777ae911e-lq








Even Indian economists say that Modi's government doing various manipulations to inflate their GDP (maybe that's why he underperformed in elections).


With India's large population, they all just need to do the bare minimum of surviving to generate quite high gdp. Part of it is also manipulated, surely.

The thing about gdp you need to take into account is that not all economic activity is created equal. An Indian street food vendor may be worth 1/3rd of an American factory worker in gdp generated, but the latter contribute way more than 3 times as much to national power, and it is also a lot harder to build industrial know how than just providing basic resource and service jobs.

Hence, the gap between US and India reflects gdp that is the opposite of low hanging fruit, requiring India to develop capabilities it does not have realistic ways to achieve.

3rd largest economy by *size* is correct by India's own gdp reporting standard (which can be questioned in authenticity), but it must be stated that size does not 100% correlate with *influence*. If you look the difference in market size (rather than gdp size) between China and US, you'll also see that US is overestimated and their economic influence is less close to China than what their gdp would imply.

BTW if you combined all African economies, they become the 4th largest economy in the world.
 

Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
Total population size can only take you so far. Africa also has the same population as China, yet not many want to invest there much.

I'm not disputing the validity of the GDP PPP, but the Indian numbers there look pretty unrealistic and made-up, hard to verify, to me.

There is no way in hell that they are this close to the US and China, I mean, Japan and Russia are probably economically stronger themselves than India.

Look at how many manufactured exports Japan has, and how few India has, IP, science, etc, Japan is running surpluses with everyone, and India is running deficits. India imports nearly all military equipment (from Russia, the West, even small countries like Israel), etc...

Look at the electricity consumption per capita of India, etc, their hunger levels, child wasting, stunting, undernourishment, literacy rates, and no infrastructure of any kind...

If India was truly the 3rd global economy in power, then where are they manufacturing exports, industrial power, strong MIC, etc?

So not only is the individual quality of life pretty shitty, but as a whole, they are not that powerful as a country as they can't manufacture much.


Do you truly believe this data, how they are 3rd strongest country economically? This has to be either some manipulation or an outlier stat.
India is the third country in with the biggest electricity consumption. They have around 1/7 of China electrical consumption.

They are obviously less developed than China, Russia or Japan. But their population is huge and it is relatively developed. They have 12 times the population of Japan, Japan should be 12 times more productive to match India. And 12 times more productive is A LOT MORE productive.

For comparison, US productivity has average a increase of 2% since 1950. This means that applying compose interest during 70 years US now is only 5 times more productive than in 1950.

Even if India would be in 1950 US state of development (and they are obviously more advanced) just due to the sheer difference in population Japan could not be bigger.

Also the example of Africa is not good. India is far more developed than Africa, since have a long history of statehood and civilization that some of the most populated areas in Africa lacks. If all Africa would be Egypt that could be different. Also they have nukes that give them independence since their independence 70 years ago, while Africa is still plunged.

That India is relatively advanced in some things, for example they were able to land a moonlander recently. They also have manufacturing, some IT, etc.

Anyway as I say in my post, I disagree with using GDP (nominal or purchasing power parity) to measure economies. There are many reasons of why is wrong.

India particularly has some neoliberal tendencies that inflate their GDP numbers. But their overall economy is huge, just due to the huge size of their country.

So I totally think that GDP of India is really 40% of China, but that Indian real economy is probably less than to 20% of Chinese due to superior Chinese development.

PD: The new about rural kids is of course worrying, but rural population do rural things in all countries. A classical farmer in the US is able to read (although I doubt he practices a lot), but it is not called redneck for nothing.
India still has 500 million of Urban people, and that is still a lot
 
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generalmeng

New Member
Registered Member
Total population size can only take you so far. Africa also has the same population as China, yet not many want to invest there much.

I'm not disputing the validity of the GDP PPP, but the Indian numbers there look pretty unrealistic and made-up, hard to verify, to me.

There is no way in hell that they are this close to the US and China, I mean, Japan and Russia are probably economically stronger themselves than India.

Look at how many manufactured exports Japan has, and how few India has, IP, science, etc, Japan is running surpluses with everyone, and India is running deficits. India imports nearly all military equipment (from Russia, the West, even small countries like Israel), etc...

Look at the electricity consumption per capita of India, etc, their hunger levels, child wasting, stunting, undernourishment, literacy rates, and no infrastructure of any kind...

If India was truly the 3rd global economy in power, then where are they manufacturing exports, industrial power, strong MIC, etc?

So not only is the individual quality of life pretty shitty, but as a whole, they are not that powerful as a country as they can't manufacture much.

Do you truly believe this data, how they are 3rd strongest country economically? This has to be either some manipulation or an outlier stat.




View attachment 130692




GEwQrRUa0AAhyP0





main-qimg-7b05e6d582152e78f15bd55777ae911e-lq










Even Indian economists say that Modi's government doing various manipulations to inflate their GDP artificially (maybe that's why he underperformed in elections, the difference between fiction and reality).


Gdp, population, steel production, grain production... Etc are all metrics to measure a nation's strength. We are overly focused on gdp because for the last 30 years that's all was taught in economic schools. Many factors are considered by the head of states for their decisions making. This is why a diverse advisors team is important. USA brainwashed themselves over the last 30 years and now their public service advisor teams are full of idiots who thinks only gdp and service sectors is the sole determination of national strength, and hence we come to this mistake with the Ukraine War.

In sun tze, wars are won before the battles begin. Sun tze also suggest compromise as an alternative to war, seek victory through negotiation and peace.
 

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
They are obviously less developed than China, Russia or Japan. But their population is huge and it is relatively developed. They have 12 times the population of Japan, Japan should be 12 times more productive to match India. And 12 times more productive is A LOT MORE productive.


Being 10-20 times more productive per capita than India is not that hard for Japan, South Korea, and eventually China (it is still developing), due to the high quality of their human capital as opposed to Indian human capital quality.

For example, South Korea has a 3% global manufacturing share, Japan has 7.2%, and India has 3.3%. But now compare their population size. As neither one of them is famous for some special natural resources, this has to be human capital.

But, I agree that these East Asian societies are truly unmatched and exceptional in human capital and so many ordinary countries in the Global South will find it pretty hard to leapfrog over India's 1.4 billion people through productivity per capita.

But, here we come to another lesser-understood fact. India is not a real country historically. They are an artificial amalgamation of many historically separated kingdoms, cultures, societies, etc, made by the British colonialists for easier administrative control. Only somewhat sharing a common religion (just like Christians of Europe have the same religion, nothing special) and manufactured hatred for Muslims.

They are more like a continent (sub-continent) in this case, instead of a naturally unified historical nation, I look at them like that.

They are an entity similar to like if Latin America unified into a single country (this sounds pretty unrealistic, but that's what the British did for India). So, India will not have longevity in this form. Divisions will lead to a disintegration of this fake construct over time 100%.

Africa also had some amazing civilizations in various historical snapshots, just like India, so nothing special here either, they are closer to Africans than closer to anyone else (both in division and human capital).

Let's take the combined Latin American GDP and compare it to the Indian sub-continent GDP and you get $5.7 trillion against $3.47 trillion for Latin America (that's like 165% of Indian GDP). And that is with 1/3 of the Indian population.

They have two totally different language families (Indo-European in the North, Dravidian in the South, also you have this genetic divide), languages, language scripts, and alphabets (10-20 major writing systems, and even more major languages, which then further divide even more in dialects),

Even 40% of Hindi speakers have various sub-dialects between them. Whereas you take Latin America, the majority of people speak clear Spanish. I don't see why anyone thinks this form of India will go anywhere in the long run.

Thousands of ethnic groups, and hundreds of terrorist organizations. You see these thousands of political parties in India in this election clown show, they have no unified ubiquitous language like Iran, only friction, friction, friction, chaos, chaos, chaos.

India is I think the biggest, over-estimated joke in this form of history that could ever exist. I'm sorry but they are nothing truly important.


That India is relatively advanced in some things, for example they were able to land a moonlander recently. They also have manufacturing, some IT, etc.


That is all not good in comparison to their size, South Korea is massively over-achieving in comparison to them. Also, their "IT" is pretty much going to be replaced rapidly in the next few years thanks to various LLMs coming from the US.
 
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Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
Being 10-20 times more productive per capita than India is not that hard for Japan, South Korea, and eventually China (it is still developing), due to the high quality of their human capital as opposed to Indian human capital quality.

I think you are underestimating how crazy is 10 times more productive. As I pointed, the 2024 US is just5 times more productive than in the 1950

For example, South Korea has a 3% global manufacturing share, Japan has 7.2%, and India has 3.3%. But now compare their population size. As neither one of them is famous for some special natural resources, this has to be human capital.

But, I agree that these East Asian societies are truly unmatched and exceptional in human capital and so many ordinary countries in the Global South will find it pretty hard to leapfrog over India's 1.4 billion people through productivity per capita.
Agree, East Asia very develop. But india is above average
But, here we come to another lesser-understood fact. India is not a real country historically. They are an artificial amalgamation of many historically separated kingdoms, cultures, societies, etc, made by the British colonialists for easier administrative control. Only somewhat sharing a common religion (just like Christians of Europe have the same religion, nothing special) and manufactured hatred for Muslims.
True, although they have had some empires that unified almost all of them but what I meant is that they have a tradition of statehood. All those little states had philosophers, thinkers, bureaucracy and so on since antiquity.
They are more like a continent (sub-continent) in this case, instead of a naturally unified historical nation, I look at them like that.

They are an entity similar to like if Latin America unified into a single country (this sounds pretty unrealistic, but that's what the British did for India). So, India will not have longevity in this form. Divisions will lead to a disintegration of this fake construct over time 100%.
Personally for me all hispanic america (plus Spain, Portugal and Brazil) unified makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of absurd nationalism there going on there, promoted by the anglosaxon in a divide an empire way.

Africa also had some amazing civilizations in various historical snapshots, just like India, so nothing special here either, they are closer to Africans than closer to anyone else (both in division and human capital).
Here I disagree. Africa by far is not close to the impact of India in humankind development. There has been a couple of civilization there, but not in the time length of India and without the impact that India has in mathematics, culture, philosophy, religion and other matters.
Let's take the combined Latin American GDP and compare it to the Indian sub-continent GDP and you get $5.7 trillion against $3.47 trillion for Latin America (that's like 165% of Indian GDP). And that is with 1/3 of the Indian population.
Hispanic America was in a much higher state of development than most of the global south just 100/200 years ago. In the moment of the independence from Spain around 1800 they were some of the richest countries on Earth, some of them like Mexico with a very develop infrastructure, universities, etc.
They were not colonized in the sense that people normally think of european colonies. They were not simply a place to be plunged like India, or most Africa.
Much was destroyed by the US interference, but is normal that they live better than India, that was colonized until 1950.

They have two totally different language families (Indo-European in the North, Dravidian in the South, also you have this genetic divide), languages, language scripts, and alphabets (10-20 major writing systems, and even more major languages, which then further divide even more in dialects),

Even 40% of Hindi speakers have various sub-dialects between them. Whereas you take Latin America, the majority of people speak clear Spanish. I don't see why anyone thinks this form of India will go anywhere in the long run.

Thousands of ethnic groups, and hundreds of terrorist organizations. You see these thousands of political parties in India in this election clown show, they have no unified ubiquitous language like Iran, only friction, friction, friction, chaos, chaos, chaos
Personally, in absence of foreign interference I think is logical that countries unite rather than dive. This is applicable to slavic countries, hispanic countries, India, etc.
Religion is the most important cultural aspect, together with language. The dialecs of hindi will be unified with time simply due to a unified central administration.
Agree with this big difference with the southern language, but even that language is still derived from sanskrit.
India is I think the biggest, over-estimated joke in this form of history that could ever exist. I'm sorry but they are nothing truly important.

That is all not good in comparison to their size, South Korea is massively over-achieving in comparison to them. Also, their "IT" is pretty much going to be replaced rapidly in the next few years thanks to various LLMs coming from the US.
In our timeline SK seems pretty successful, but we should not forget that they are very favoured in the world economic system since they were the wall against communism.
SK was allowed to have crazy proteccionsim without suffering consequences. Samsung, hyundai and all those develop having their internal market totally free for them without competence, withour suffering any tariff outside.
Also they received very big amount of investment during decades.
Without that advantage is doubtful they would have achieve this success.

Also they work crazy amount of hours and their demography is fucked due to that. So lets see them in 50/100 years
 

Tse

Junior Member
Registered Member
but even that language is still derived from sanskrit.
Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu, and Kannada are from the Dravidian language family, which has no relation to the Indo-Aryan language family which contains Sanskrit. Tamil nationalists absolutely refuse to use any Indo-Aryan language and they are the primary reason why Indian nationalists failed to change the official language from English to Sanskrit.

Also, Hinduism is not a single religion. Different regions of India worship different deities and celebrate different festivals. Even their traditional calendar systems are completely different (some solar, some lunisolar) from place to place.
 
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