Chinese Economics Thread

Equation

Lieutenant General
Fact of the matter is, China is already ruled by a corporate elite, albeit state owned/state connected. The problem with the U.S. is actually similar to China in that its financial sector has been deregulated to the point that it can behave irresponsibly, write its own rules, and buy out the government. (thanks to Mr. Reagan) In both cases, it's a small group of elites that have monopolized the market and are making upward mobility difficult for the rest of us by cheating the system.

Yeah but China's elite were able to bring 500 million Chinese above the poverty line and at the same time building up 300+ million people into the middle class speaks volume in itself. Meanwhile the opposite seems to be happening here in the US.


In China, there is already a property bubble created primarily by local governments, corrupt officials and their connected businesses. I agree with you that if lending were made easier now, this bubble would probably get worse, but I believe that the government can give incentives for firms to invest in R&D and job creating industries instead if they wanted to. (the advantage of autocracy)

Have you already forgotten about the already popped bubble here in the US with the subprime mortages disaster? Guess who ends up holding the bag to bail out these "too big to fail" (common terms used by pundits) bankers? Yep, the tax payers and middle class people. Remember it was at costs of TRILLIONS OF US DOLLARS to save them, meanwhile the CEOs and executives still get their Christmas bonuses and laying off workers DURING the holidays.


I don't know exactly how China could create a free and independent judiciary, in the West, selecting nonpartisan and impartial judges has always been a tough issue and tackled with many different methods with varying degrees of success. Regardless of how judges can be made impartial, (intense public scrutiny, diversity of backgrounds, popular election of judiciary, etc) decoupling the court system from the CCP and making trials and judge selection more accessible to the public is the first step. Right now, the courts just about ALWAYS rule in favor of the Party and the well connected; the West also faces issues with judicial impartiality, but in China they are multiplied 10-fold.

What judicial impartiality are you talking about? Go ask Travon Marin's parents and ask them if they believe the US justice system has served it's purpose when a community watchman (NOT POLICE or a security guard) follow their 17 year old coming back home from a convenient store to purchase candy and a soda, and shot him all because George Zimmerman (perpetrator) thought he was thug. In the end George Zimmerman didn't get convicted for manslaughter all because the six incompetence jurors believed in their Stand your Ground laws of the state of Florida too much.
 

pissybits

Junior Member
Reading your comment it make me believe that you buy the western propaganda machine roll, stock and barrel. i can understand that being young and impressionable.you buy those propaganda

All your comment seem to come from the book of western media. Now I was curious why the same media doesn't criticize their own government and political system when they were now mired in economic.political malaise for 5 years, while China GDP has been grow for 40% int the mean time .They relish in the story of ant population but forgetting that youth unemployment in Spain reach 50%
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Now let talk about corruption you diagnose the symptom but you are completely wrong as to the cause of disease.When it come to corruption China is not even the worst offender Transparency international rank China 80 out of 160 somewhere in the middle. In fact China keep climbing the index ladder year after year

In
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Any developing country where the norm and law is not well established, and too much money sloshing around because of development, you will have corruption whether it is democracy or not. India has even worst ranking in corruption then do china so do Indonesia, Philippine and many many other countries.

They have independent judiciary why can they stop the corruption?. So your contention that independent judiciary is the panacea for corruption is totally hogwash.
Anyway the idea of Judiciary as final arbiter of dispute is only illusion. I don[t know where you come form but having your case heard in the court is expensive preposition. Only when the lawyer or law firm have a possibility of winning in the court and bring rich reward of taking the cut on penalty , are they willing to take the case.
Ever heard the adage that only rich people can get justice

Only small percentage of Real Estate development can be considered as mismanagement of resource . They are not bought using zero down payment. Instead they are bought by cash for people with excess money .So the comparison with western home foreclosure is inappropriate. and not to forget China demand 30 now 50% down payment it won't hurt the bank. They only lost 50 cents out of 1 dollar. If that happened China can easily clean up the bad asset of the bank It happened before and now China bank is the largest and most profitable in the world

Now you say US law is hundred time better than China What happened to those greedy banker and rating # who clearly cause the massive economic downturn in history .Well they still enjoy their Bahamas vacation homes.
Considering they case million to loose their live saving and million more loose their jobs they should be prosecuted to the full length of the law but no such thing happened.Talk about fairness and justices.

So I suggest to you do the critical thinking and have different view of the world. Listen to this excellent presentation by Eric Li. You will find the answer to all you question and don't just mouth western propaganda lines

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not everything critical about china's way of doing things is western propaganda, if you pay attention to the historic development of world economies you would realize that the middle income trap is a real phenomenon, and an issue that is realized by china's own political leadership for many years now. (even though some of their own members are its direct perpetrators)

i know how corrupt the west is if you actually read my post, and simply citing the west's corruption to ignore china's own very real structural problems is a non sequitur argument.

china was able to grow its economy in a huge way compared to the west because it is easier to grow the economy when you are less developed, by investing in infrastructure, etc. and as to your comment about the housing market, it's true that chinese homebuyers have low lending rates, but this is because chinese banks restrict financing to private individuals while lending at NEGATIVE interest rates to connected businesses! (hence the emergency audit) alot of the biggest property developments in china are financed with this these terms, and if they fail to make enough cash, the banks(the people) bankroll the cost and the developers get off rich and scot free.

india and the philippines have procedural judicial independence, the trick is to build substantial judicial independence which is an ideal that is accomplished better or worse in different countries. but nevertheless, india/the philippines may be more corrupt but that doesn't mean that their courts are not better than china's at arbitration. no where did i say that an independent judiciary would be the cure-all to corruption, but that independent courts are a necessary (if insufficient) condition to enforce business standards and make business dealings more transparent. i acknowledged that impartiality is also a problem with western courts, but just look at the facts on the ground: (想想中国多少冤枉案要去省政府,去北京上访; 法庭见都不见) to ignore the glaring faults with china's messed up courts while pointing fingers to rhe west for being injust is simply ridiculous.

i try to get my news from very diverse sources and i believe i have developed a very nuanced ear for propaganda. sometimes it's hard to dig thru the muck, but please to not discredit the truth simply because it isn't savoury.
 
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pissybits

Junior Member
Yeah but China's elite were able to bring 500 million Chinese above the poverty line and at the same time building up 300+ million people into the middle class speaks volume in itself. Meanwhile the opposite seems to be happening here in the US.

Have you already forgotten about the already popped bubble here in the US with the subprime mortages disaster? Guess who ends up holding the bag to bail out these "too big to fail" (common terms used by pundits) bankers? Yep, the tax payers and middle class people. Remember it was at costs of TRILLIONS OF US DOLLARS to save them, meanwhile the CEOs and executives still get their Christmas bonuses and laying off workers DURING the holidays.

What judicial impartiality are you talking about? Go ask Travon Marin's parents and ask them if they believe the US justice system has served it's purpose when a community watchman (NOT POLICE or a security guard) follow their 17 year old coming back home from a convenient store to purchase candy and a soda, and shot him all because George Zimmerman (perpetrator) thought he was thug. In the end George Zimmerman didn't get convicted for manslaughter all because the six incompetence jurors believed in their Stand your Ground laws of the state of Florida too much.

it is much easier to bring people out of poverty when they had pretty much nothing to start with, but like i said, this is becoming increasingly harder for china: (impossible if they continue to stick to investment/export led growth)

my argument was never about china vs. the west, but that seems to be the first thing you want to latch onto. (effect of polarizing worlds of politicized media) please try to see past the us vs. them b.s. and realize that the contention is actually between CHINA'S OWN economic monopolization and economic pluralism. in china's current economy, the domestic market/consumerism can only be strengthened with more of the latter.

the u.s. has its own set of very big problems, some of which share similar dynamics to china's own. however pointing fingers at others' problems to justify ignoring one's own is not productive and non sequitur.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
not everything critical about china's way of doing things is western propaganda, if you pay attention to the historic development of world economies you would realize that the middle income trap is a real phenomenon, and an issue that is realized by china's own political leadership for many years now. (even though some of their own members are its direct perpetrators)

i know how corrupt the west is is you actually read my post, and simply citing the west's corruption to ignore china's own very real structural problems is a non sequitur argument.

china was able to grow its economy in a huge way compared to the west because it is easier to grow the economy when you are less developed, by investing in infrastructure, etc. and as to your comment about the housing market, it's true that chinese homebuyers have low lending rates, but this is because chinese banks restrict financing to private individuals while lending at NEGATIVE interest rates to connected businesses! alot of the biggest property developments are financed with this these terms, and if they fail to make enough cash, the banks(the people) bankroll the cost and the developers get off rich and scot free.

india and the philippines have only procedural judicial independence, the trick is to build substantial judicial independence. but nevertheless, india/the philippines may be more corrupt but that doesn't mean that their courts are not better than china's at arbitration. no where did i say that an independent judiciary would be the cure-all to corruption, i said that only with independent courts can you enforce business standards and make business dealings more transparent. i acknowledged that impartiality is also a problem with western courts, but just look at the facts on the ground: (想想中国多少冤枉案要去省政府,去北京上访; 法庭见都不见) to ignore the glaring faults with china's messed up courts while pointing fingers to rhe west for being injust is simply ridiculous.

i get news from diverse sources and i believe i have a very nuanced ear for propaganda. sometimes it's hard to dig thru the muck, but please to not discredit the truth simply because it isn't savoury.

I don't know how old you are But I have been reading western prediction of coming China collapse for 30 years Nothing even close come to reality. Western media love to make comparison what will go wrong with China now that China collapse is completely rebutted. They come up with new flavor of the day China trap in middle income citing Latin America for comparison.

To begin with China is not Latin America . China spend on infrastructure can be justified because the country is way behind compare to Developed country. If you even bother to look at the number 30% of the infrastructure is for housing and another big component is railway and port and airport etc.

Even today the US still have 200,000 railway track compare to china less than 100,000.Plus building houses is needed in the next coming decades 400 million surplus labor need to be housed,schooled, fed transported. Ever been to Europe and see the rail density even today the most dense railway in China is not even close to Europe rail network. When China built expressway the western media make joke of empty highway and convinced that it will be waste of effort. Little did they know that within 2 decade China is the largest auto producer . the same thing now with high sped railway. which according to the latest report is now running close to capacity and ticket are all booked up on week end

Latin America spend their surplus on consumption and don't invest in infrastructure hardly any comparison at all.
Another thing Chinese are by nature individualistic, entrepreneur, risk taker, materialistic.
Where there is money they will try to make it. As a proof , just go to any South east Asia countries where the business are dominated by the Chinese.Even in China handicapped as it the small business generate 50 to 60% of the jobs .Bank like everywhere want safety that is the reason they don't lend on small business. What they should do is to make easier for people to enter banking lending business which they do by the recently easier permit for small banking.

Even the interest rate is now liberated. For long time they were mandated because the country still need capital to do the infrastructure where else can you get money if you are poor. You think this is only peculiar for China Singapore for long time forced people to safe at low interest rate so the government can use to built infrastructure. Unfair you say sure it is . but there is no other way


Another thing Chinese value education and willing to suffer inconvenience of hard work for better future I went to school with a lot of Latin American.I can't say the same thing for them. At the same time there are hundred of Taiwanese all of them study electronics and some do doctorate. This is before the PC and internet time Now you see where is Taiwan and where is Latin America.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
it is much easier to bring people out of poverty when they had pretty much nothing to start with, but like i said, this is becoming increasingly harder for china: (impossible if they continue to stick to investment/export led growth)

If it were that "easy" as you suggested than how no other 3rd world country hasn't done the same thing like China did?


my argument was never about china vs. the west, but that seems to be the first thing you want to latch onto. (effect of polarizing worlds of politicized media) please try to see past the us vs. them b.s. and realize that the contention is actually between CHINA'S OWN economic monopolization and economic pluralism. in china's current economy, the domestic market/consumerism can only be strengthened with more of the latter.

But you're argument is the same as to asking why haven't China implement and adopt a system like the West? China's domestic market consumerism will come into fruition WITHOUT sacrificing any export of their own. Like I said before whatever, they're doing, it's working, and only the sour grape "experts" are getting mad about it. And I don't why are so worked up about a China rise = less poverty for it's own people even if it is a "monopoly"? You don't think there's a monopoly ruling class here as well?


the u.s. has its own set of very big problems, some of which share similar dynamics to china's own. however pointing fingers at others' problems to justify ignoring one's own is not productive and non sequitur.

However you ignore the main issue here, that in the end it's all about the competency of the leadership. My argument is that the Chinese leaders are far more capable and smarter than the west, and it does NOT have to do anything about Communism vs. Democracy at all. The Chinese leaders had so far show a more consistent basis for resolving any foreign and domestic issues better than Washington D.C. and you can go ask any Americans about it.
 

no_name

Colonel
I never really see the empty cities/highway concern. You build things due to anticipated growth. If you start building only when the need becomes pressing, it is already too late and you end up not fully exploiting opportunities. To see the obvious only when everyone else also sees it is no sign of a sharp mind.

Have a bit more faith on Chinese planners.
 

jobjed

Captain
I never really see the empty cities/highway concern. You build things due to anticipated growth. If you start building only when the need becomes pressing, it is already too late and you end up not fully exploiting opportunities. To see the obvious only when everyone else also sees it is no sign of a sharp mind.

Have a bit more faith on Chinese planners.

Well, that's how the West does things. Usually, the supply only increases when there is excess demand. That is the only way to ensure profitability while minimising risks. However, the Chinese government knows that someday in the not-so-distant future, the demand would be colossal considering China has 1.4 billion people.

Building a city takes some time, especially when there is a labour shortage. It's best to build all the vital infrastructure now, when there are still ample amounts of low-skilled labourers. Within a few decades, the one thing China is famous for; manpower, will become as whiny and "educated" as their Western counterparts leading to sky-high wages and rock-bottom productivity. By then, needing to build a city would be a much more troublesome and expensive affair. The Chinese government recognises this, so they're going to utililse the current hard-working labour force to its full potential and build everything China would possibly need for the foreseeable future. Hopefully, when low-cost labour runs out, so will the need for them.
 

A.Man

Major
GM says July China auto sales up 11.1 percent year on year

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GM says July China auto sales up 11.1 pct y/y
Sun, Aug 4 2013

BEIJING | Sun Aug 4, 2013 10:48pm EDT

(Reuters) - General Motors Co (GM.N) and its Chinese joint ventures sold 221,580 vehicles in China in July, up 11.1 percent from a year earlier, the U.S. automaker said on Monday.

That compares with a 10.6 percent year-on-year gain in June.

GM makes vehicles in China in partnership with FAW Group and SAIC Motor Corp Ltd (600104.SS).

(Reporting by Jonathan Standing; Editing by Paul Tait)
 

A.Man

Major
China home price inflation quickens in July - surveys

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Aug 1 (Reuters) - China's property inflation quickened in July amid signs of greater official tolerance of rising home prices as economic growth slows, two private surveys showed on Thursday.

Home prices in 288 major cities rose 0.8 percent in July from June, accelerating from June's monthly increase of 0.4 percent and snapping two months of slowing property inflation, a poll by a real estate services company E-House China showed.

Compared to a year ago, house prices jumped 11 percent in July, quickening from June's 10.5 percent annual gains, E-House said.

With real estate one of the few bright spots in an economy slowing due to weak exports, analysts say China's authorities will keep property polices stable with no radical tightening to cool the market in the short term.

China's politburo, the country's top decision-making body, said on Tuesday it would promote the stable and healthy development of the property market, without mentioning property controlling policies.

A separate survey by China Real Estate Index System (CREIS) showed average prices in the 100 biggest cities rose for the 14th straight month in July, up 0.9 percent on a monthly basis, slightly faster than the previous month.

"The risk of an economic downtrend is getting more attention, so expectations for tighter property controls and monetary policy are fading," said a statement from CREIS, a consultancy linked to China's largest online property information firm Soufun Holdings.

Average home prices in the 100 biggest cities rose 8.0 percent in July from a year ago, up from June's 7.4 percent gain in the eighth straight monthly rise, CREIS said.

In China's most expensive 10 cities, including Beijing and Shanghai, average home rose 1.3 percent on the month and 11 percent on the year, CREIS said.

Li Tie, head of China Centre for Urban Development, a think tank under the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), was quoted by official media as saying on Tuesday that property bubbles in China's first-tier cities were not severe and prices in these cities would continue to increase.

China is due to publish home price data in 70 major Chinese cities for July on Aug. 18. The pace of China's month-on-month home price rises edged down for a third straight month in June though the year-on-year gains were the strongest this year. (Reporting By Xiaoyi Shao and Jonathan Standing; Editing by Jeremy Laurence)
 

pissybits

Junior Member
I don't know how old you are But I have been reading western prediction of coming China collapse for 30 years Nothing even close come to reality. Western media love to make comparison what will go wrong with China now that China collapse is completely rebutted. They come up with new flavor of the day China trap in middle income citing Latin America for comparison.

To begin with China is not Latin America . China spend on infrastructure can be justified because the country is way behind compare to Developed country. If you even bother to look at the number 30% of the infrastructure is for housing and another big component is railway and port and airport etc.

Even today the US still have 200,000 railway track compare to china less than 100,000.Plus building houses is needed in the next coming decades 400 million surplus labor need to be housed,schooled, fed transported. Ever been to Europe and see the rail density even today the most dense railway in China is not even close to Europe rail network. When China built expressway the western media make joke of empty highway and convinced that it will be waste of effort. Little did they know that within 2 decade China is the largest auto producer . the same thing now with high sped railway. which according to the latest report is now running close to capacity and ticket are all booked up on week end

Latin America spend their surplus on consumption and don't invest in infrastructure hardly any comparison at all.
Another thing Chinese are by nature individualistic, entrepreneur, risk taker, materialistic.
Where there is money they will try to make it. As a proof , just go to any South east Asia countries where the business are dominated by the Chinese.Even in China handicapped as it the small business generate 50 to 60% of the jobs .Bank like everywhere want safety that is the reason they don't lend on small business. What they should do is to make easier for people to enter banking lending business which they do by the recently easier permit for small banking.

Even the interest rate is now liberated. For long time they were mandated because the country still need capital to do the infrastructure where else can you get money if you are poor. You think this is only peculiar for China Singapore for long time forced people to safe at low interest rate so the government can use to built infrastructure. Unfair you say sure it is . but there is no other way


Another thing Chinese value education and willing to suffer inconvenience of hard work for better future I went to school with a lot of Latin American.I can't say the same thing for them. At the same time there are hundred of Taiwanese all of them study electronics and some do doctorate. This is before the PC and internet time Now you see where is Taiwan and where is Latin America.

i know the china bashers in the western media, but please do not connect everyrthing critical about china to china bashing. when you assume someone has a political stance or are influenced by "the left" or "the right" or whatever label you want to put on them, you stop listening to what they have to say because you bring with it your own preconcieved notions about that "stance."

china's economy is making an obvious transition because of its own circumstances and circumstances overseas. like i said, they need to make lending more available to small enterprises and free up capital for private individuals to develope the domestic economy. like you said they just liberalized interest rates which is a major step in the right direction.

it is not that china does not need infractructure, but it needs the right infrastructure. under the export/investment led growth regime that china has utilized since deng xiaoping, small circles are able to monopolize the economy and alot of money becomes wasted through corruption and through general lack of accountability. admittedly, china has still managed to put alot of money in good places but the waste is still staggering. now that it is harder and harder to maintain export led growth, the government has understandably called for more financial liberalization to bring up domestic capital.

however what is critical about this wave of liberalization is that if it is not done accountably, it will result in more massive corruption and a credit shortage. think about it: china's first wave of financial liberalization privatized the major SOEs, but did it in an insider way so that massive firms were bought at pennies to the dollar in the 1980s and 1990s. granted, these new owners, corrupt though they were, were able to efficienize their firms toward export manufacturing enough to generate positive revenues in spite of graft and a bit of embezellment. this was good for the chinese economy, but millions lost their jobs as these firms restructured. (ever heard the rhyme: 江泽民挥挥手,下岗工人片地走)

at that point, china was still comparatively poor and lacked all manner of infrastructure, export demand was strong and there was room to grow fast and easy with single direction/sector development. (japan, taiwan, korea, now china have followed the asian development state model) however korea and taiwan grew into prosperity while demand was still strong. china is not quite there yet and now the export market is not so hot anymore while domestic wages are catching up.

the solution? stimulate domestic spending (china as big as it is could easily support itself via its domestic economy, much room for growth) and that takes yet another wave of financial liberalization. however this time it is trickier, because growing domestically means liberalizing capital availability which means that the country will get richer, but the guys used to playing the system can't get away with what they used to be able to do. now that is if china liberalizes finances properly... if it is as unfair and insider dominated as the last time, there will be a lot more corruption as connected individuals write up rules favourable to themselves, and this time i don't think china could take it. at worst they will have unrest, and at best they would have sold out china's future. (where do you think china's embezelled cash goes? -england, singapore, switzerland and the u.s.)

this is why i am so adamant about accountability now. you say chinese people are exceptional and make better entrepreneurs/leaders, well let's hope they can do it right this time and not screw over the country, because in the way china's political system is set up as it is, there is little that keeps them from being selfish and doing the same insider crap they did last time in the '90s. this time, it's exactly what china's economy doesn't need.

perhaps china's political leadership is more responsible this time or at least care about the consequences of committing fraudulent insider restructuring in an impending credit shortage. however i will not trust their ability to do it properly left up to their own devices. as chinese people, we ought to educate ourselves about the potential pitfalls of economic restructuring and be vigilant and vocal when we see something wrong instead of wanting to reassure ourselves about "how strong china is" just to counter what we precieve as western antagonists.

in america, the last wave of financial liberalization was so thorough that wall street was essentially allowed to write its own rules, the result over the last 20 odd years is that the superrich has got alot richer, the middle class is diminishing, and upward mobility is much more difficult. in fact, the 2008 credit crunch (and subsequent weak demand in the u.s./the west) is the direct culmination of this unchecked financial liberalization. this was because reagan's cronies were in bed with wall street and were able to put it through congress because nobody knew anything about economics and only believed in the laissez faire neoliberal dogma. as a result, wall street showed that it is not accountable to the american people but only to itself.

in china, a comparable restructuring has to occur, but china does not have the advantages america had in the 80s. (an already strong domestic consumer base, accountability measures in the form of open political procedure) this is why the potential for abuse during china's current economic restructuring is so high, while the consequences would be alot more dire. it is hard to say that the ccp would be more accountable to the people this time around, (than in the '90s) this is why i think they can use all the public scrutiny and pressure needed to make sure they do it right.
 
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