Chinese Economics Thread

A.Man

Major
Another Look?


China May Have Ghost Cities But Rapid Growth Is No Apparition

Stephen Leeb Stephen Leeb, Contributor

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Ordos, China's biggest Ghost city.
Ordos: China's biggest ghost city. (Photo credit: iamuday)

China has hit targets in virtually everything central planners have ever outlined. Plenty of naysayers cite China’s purported credit-debt bubble and its supposedly overbuilt infrastructure. Often, critics like “60 Minutes” cite China’s putative ghost cities, fully built urban areas where supposedly few to no residents live.

I am not alarmed by China’s so-called ghost cities, much less Chinese overbuilding or vulnerability to a crash. The fact is, China’s urbanization goal requires that it build roughly 100 cities in the next decade, vastly greater than the scant, same five “ghost cities” belittled again and again over the last decade.



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Of the targets, Ordos has garnered the most publicity, probably due to its size and Mongolian desert location. But two documentary filmmakers, Adam Smith and Song Ting, offer a very different and compelling assessment. Ordos “sprang to life” on the heels of a major coal discovery. That led to massive building. Really, Ordos includes two cities, one already a vibrant metropolis of 2 million residents whose average income matches that in the U.S., the second as yet small, but as the film makers suggest, starting to catch fire.

Whatever overbuilding China may have done, it was simply insufficient to create an economic crisis. The IMF authored the most comprehensive report to date on Chinese over investment. China’s debts, unlike those of the U.S. and most other countries, the IMF notes, are owed to China itself. Therefore, the risks of a full-blown Chinese economic crisis remain small.

The misallocation of resources does create some economic strain. The IMF calculates that these translate into a subsidy from households to large state-owned enterprises, of roughly 4% of GDP. However, if that figure is accurate, or even somewhat higher, Chinese per capita income has nevertheless grown faster, over a much longer period of time, than in any country since the advent of capitalism. In the last 13 years, by contrast, real U.S. median incomes declined about 10%.

Moreover, the IMF and Western analysts in general judge investment returns along a fairly short time horizon. China probably views returns on investment in its infrastructure, especially in energy, as heavily back-loaded. Chinese academic articles predict peak coal sometime in the next decade. Clearly, the world ought to start to prepare now, although gains will not be evident until coal supplies start to lag demand.

To me, this provides yet another indication that China sits on firmer ground than many believe, and that fears of a Chinese real estate bubble in particular are way overblown. Here’s a number never cited in the U.S. press, real estate price changes relative to GDP. Broad-based measures of home or property prices in China, show that gains over several years pretty much match GDP growth.

During the U.S. housing bubble, by contrast, home prices increased several times faster than annual growth in GDP. Similarly, in Japan, real estate prices during the late 1980s rose many times faster than GDP growth, while P/Es on the Nikkei in the same period often rose to triple-digit levels. In China, current P/Es remain at the single-digit level. In a country as big as China one would normally expect to find pockets of overvaluation in virtually all assets, but I think China’s critics have wildly exaggerated the extent of the problem.

In fact, China’s economy is no longer export driven. Retail sales and internal consumption are growing along with GDP.

Since so much evidence against China is anecdotal, here is a contrasting anecdote. The current No. 2 in China’s hierarchy, Li Keqiang, also responsible for economic policy, for five years earlier worked beside former economic minister Wen Jiabao. Since his portfolio then included the entire array of economic management, arguably his knowledge of the Chinese economy is second to none. If China really faced serious economic trouble, I doubt he’d have eagerly accepted his current post. Actually, Li campaigned for it and landed in a government position even higher than that of Wen, previously No. 3 in the pecking order. To the best of my knowledge, the Chinese aren’t famous for acceptance of suicide missions.

So what investments are leveraged to Chinese growth? With so many cities and so many infrastructures left to build, commodities will, as mentioned in a previous blog, naturally benefit. The biggest bang , however, could be in the Chinese stock market. A profound laggard in recent years the Chinese market could play catch-up, big time, as the government continues to liberalize its markets. The government now mostly shuts out foreigners from the vast majority of Chinese stocks. That is changing quickly as the Chinese seek an ever greater role for their currency, the Yuan, in world commerce. Gradually, the government is opening the gates to foreigners to invest directly in Chinese markets, although for the typical retail customer, pickings remain pretty slim.

Here are several picks available to all investors. Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, which trades under the symbol IDCBY, is one poster child of more liberalized Chinese markets. The largest Chinese bank trades with a P/E of only 5.5 and yields over 6 percent. With such metrics the bank looks to me like a great bet that China is far from the verge of total collapse. I also like the China Fund CHN -0.34% (CHN), which probably offers the best way to get a stake in all the ultra-fast growing Chinese companies still closed to foreigners. The fund has sharply outperformed all the major Chinese stock averages.

Additional plays representing China’s upward mobility theme include the internet and software companies Baidu BIDU +4.04% (BIDU) and NetEase (NTES), Internet retailers like travel-based Ctrip.com International (CTRP) and ECommerce China Dangdang (DANG). For those who might consider individual Chinese stocks a tad too risky, there is always the large cap iShares FTSE/Xinhua China 25 Index (FXI), an ETF that focuses on bigger state-owned businesses.

Disclaimer: Dr. Leeb currently recommends China Fund to his clients.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Remember during the Asian Financial Crisis all the countries that listened to the IMF took the longest to recover?

Even though I read articles on China's economy, I can't really take them seriously. You can literally read two opposing articles in the Western media talking about the same news going on in China. I just heard this morning about rising US gas prices despite all this talk about new found domestic energy in the US and who's to blame. Of course it's Middle East turmoil and then also by default... high China demand. After reading for months how China's energy consumption is down thus being a sign of a weak economy?
 

In4ser

Junior Member
Remember during the Asian Financial Crisis all the countries that listened to the IMF took the longest to recover?

Even though I read articles on China's economy, I can't really take them seriously. You can literally read two opposing articles in the Western media talking about the same news going on in China. I just heard this morning about rising US gas prices despite all this talk about new found domestic energy in the US and who's to blame. Of course it's Middle East turmoil and then also by default... high China demand. After reading for months how China's energy consumption is down thus being a sign of a weak economy?
To be fair in a leaked document from wikileaks from a little while back, Li Keqing stated that all of China's growth data is manufactured and in order to evaluated China's growth you have to look at a variety of factors (one of which is energy consumption).

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kroko

Senior Member
To be fair in a leaked document from wikileaks from a little while back, Li Keqing stated that all of China's growth data is manufactured and in order to evaluated China's growth you have to look at a variety of factors (one of which is energy consumption).

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That was in 2007 and i dont think he said that ALL of the data is manufactured, but at least a part of it is.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Well it's no different from how economists spin how great the US economy is brushing aside high unemployment figures. What it mean is the rich are doing great while everyone else is still struggling. The West uses consumer spending on non-essential goods as a gauge on economics. Well the Chinese box office is growing on average 30% every year and China is still the number one auto market in the world despite how better the US is doing compared to China.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
To be fair in a leaked document from wikileaks from a little while back, Li Keqing stated that all of China's growth data is manufactured and in order to evaluated China's growth you have to look at a variety of factors (one of which is energy consumption).

Source:
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I know Lie Keqiang has Phd in economic but his indicator is outdated and akin to reading tea leave. Why he used lagging indicator to predict the future course of China economy is beyond me, Years back I dabble in stock market and I study every books about stock. Basically there are 2 ways to predict the stock market one is there is no way to predict the stock market which now I believe and the other thing is so called technical analysis and fundamental analysis which they say can predict the stock market.
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Now Lie keqiang trusted indicator like freight volume and use of electricity belong to Technical analysis. Basically this people study charts and they make all kind of chart with all kind of moving averages etc You can even buy computer services to chart anything .

But the problem with this type of indicator is if everybody following the indicator it will invalidate itself in no time

And there are all kind indicator one of them is the height of women skirt when it short the market will tank and believe they have accuracy of 90% So any one can conjure up and indicator and they could right most of the time due to chance .

So even I respect Lie Keqiang Her he is wrong probably because he study economy in 70 when this technical analysis is in fashion,Now a days Technical analysis is disrepute and out of fashion I remember there is this guy his name is Robert Prechter and he believe in wave theory
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Everybody in wall street and media worship him.His word can move stock market up and down. Until he become overconfidence and predict the coming crash in stock market No such thing happened and he is never heard again. google his name if you don't believe me

For me it is just hocus pocus that is promoted by stock trader to fool people in throwing their hard earned money to the toilet. so isay Lie Keqiang you are fool in believing this stupid wall street snake oil trader/
That is the problem with mainlander they are easily blinded by the razzmatazz of Hollywood. specially those generation that grew up in poor 70
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Another contradiction I've been reading is the criticism that China doesn't take measures to curb the economic downturn in growth like it has before. You mean the same "manipulations" criticized before said to superficially prop up the economy? Well some articles I've read that take a back seat to the more sensational news says the slow growth is a part of China retooling the system to strengthen the economy from the weaknesses of before. That's why China is not taking those measures against the slide.
 

A.Man

Major
It is just a side story to read!


Follow your labels: American apple juice is a product of China

My bus from Xi'an, China, passed by the giant apple-shaped structure on the edge of the city of Luochuan. At the core of the apple is an empty convention center; next to it is the apple museum and apple hotel. All this anticipates an apple tourist boom to match the apple-production explosion here.

Across the aisle on the bus, a grandfather – Feng Zi Han – held his chubby-cheeked baby granddaughter. He is an apple farmer; and when we got off the bus, he invited me to visit his farm.

Nearly 60 percent of apple juice sold in the United States is imported from China, according to US Department of Agriculture data. That's why I went there last August: I wanted to see what that meant for Chinese apple farmers. So I took Mr. Feng up on his offer.

RECOMMENDED: Follow your labels: Your place in the global consumer chain

I could barely hear the invitation over the pounding jackhammers and the swinging picks. Every road in town was being widened.

"All the apple farmers are buying cars, and we need bigger streets," Feng explained.

The next day he took me to visit the orchard. He didn't have a car yet, but he did have a motorcycle with a trailer on the back in which he placed a wooden stool for me to sit on. He handed me a pink parasol to block the sun.

His orchard sits close enough to a brand-new electric station that the hum is audible. The trees were smaller than the apple trees I've come to know in the Midwest. They didn't look as if they were growing apples at all: Small brown paper bags were used to cover each apple, warding off pests.

Feng has been farming this land for more than 20 years, but things really started to change in the 1990s, when the government began developing the region's apples and brought in scientists to teach the locals modern techniques.

The Fengs go back five generations as farmers, but they haven't always grown apples. Farmers here were subsistence farmers and herders. Their land, located on the Loess Plateau, had rich soil, but it was easily washed away. As deforestation increased, so did erosion. Desertification set in, which the World Bank referred to as "not a natural phenomenon, but one caused by the hopelessness of poverty."

In 1994, the World Bank and China launched one of the largest development projects on earth to reclaim the land. Dams were constructed; terraces were carved out by hand. Apple trees were planted. Rain that once had washed away land and flooded the region with poverty now nourishes the apple trees and brings wealth. Incomes have doubled, unemployment has halved, and ecological balance has been regained. More than 2.5 million people's lives changed.

"Growing up, we didn't have enough food," Feng said. "In 1960 in China ... we were hungry."

We left the orchard to have lunch in his home, which sits behind a brick wall with a grand metal gate decorated with a dragon knocker. I was shown into one of the four bedrooms and asked to sit on the couch. Above the couch was a sign that translated to "Family, Harmony, Fortune, and Luck."

"How has life changed?" I asked.

"Life has changed for the better," Feng said, as he unbuttoned his shirt and patted his belly. "Our living conditions are good, just look…." He motioned to his flat-screen TV and surround-sound speakers. Also on the wall were pictures of his three children – not just snapshots, but full-on glamour shots.

Feng earns about $20,000 a year growing apples, a sum that has afforded his children the opportunity to study in the city and pursue careers outside agriculture.

When Chinese apple juice concentrate entered the US market, the price of concentrate collapsed from $153 per ton in 1995 to $55 per ton in 1998. American farmers struggled to compete. Some sold their farms; others went bankrupt.

Their loss was Feng's gain.

"What percent of your apples are eaten and what percent are made into juice?" I asked.

"Seventy percent are taken to the local juice factory," he said, and then laughed. "You know, nobody here drinks apple juice."

RECOMMENDED: Follow your labels: Your place in the global consumer chain

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