Chinese Economics Thread

zbb

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes they can, but is this really so simple? Or are there some other inconveniences which everyone here tends to associate only with us:
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To put this into better context, here are the total debt (government + corporate + household) to GDP ratios for a few other countries.

United States 723.7%
United Kingdom 912.2%
Canada 920.7%
France 938.5%
Japan1323.3%

Unlike China, most of the countries above "benefited" from high inflation in the last 3 years which inflated their nominal GDPs and lowered their debt-to-GDP ratios. For example, the US and UK ratios were over 840% and 1200% respectively in early 2021.

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BrokeGambler

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To put this into better context, here are the total debt (government + corporate + household) to GDP ratios for a few other countries.
To put into an understandable context, you can read this article where is explained why the debt burden for Chinese households is even bigger then in USA and increasing

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in the past 20 years, the household sector in China has had the heaviest debt burden, surpassing even the peak debt burden of US households in 2007. The reason why housing prices in China have been declining since 2022 is due to this heavy debt burden

Of course you can ignore the facts and still base your opinion on numbers without context. I gave the GDP rate just to give an example that both USA and China have debt problems and the latter cannot inject like it did in 2008 as one claimed. Or they can but it will have consequences. And at the end this will happen, because Chinese officials talk a lot and wait without actually doing something and at the end they would have to release multiples of what would have initially sufficed. And this will happen this year when stocks crater again after the initial spike. But of course here no one thinks that stock and financial markets are important and someone else believed that higher interest rates mean that the economy is crushing .. where it's the opposite, i.e, the US economy is booming and investors demand higher rates for their capital and long term rates are increasing and the FED is forced to increase their funding rates even higher to cool it a bit. And if the economy was crashing there will be no demand for loans and rates will drop and as the were negative in the past as central banks tried to force lending and prop up economy
 
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Serb

Junior Member
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It would be fine to look at total debt / GDP as a sign of a weakening economy IF that debt is mainly serviced by fiscal revenue like in the US.

This is because the fiscal revenue/taxes are highly correlated to GDP.

However asset-backed debt can be driven by other factors not necessarily related to the growth in GDP (at least in the short term).

If we examine the changing composition of Chinese debt over the last decade,

Debt backed by tangible assets has driven the vast majority of the debt increase in China.

Central gov't debt has only driven a 3% increase in the debt/GDP ratio, while the other categories accounted for an 83% increase in the debt/GDP ratio from 2013 to 2022.



F4OjrkpX0AAUcyQ





And for asset-backed debt, we should look at the utilization rates/value of those assets, not the value of GDP, for debt-carrying capacity.

We only need to look at appropriate asset-level metrics to determine asset value.

Only from here can one determine the value of the debt and equity in a liquidation waterfall scenario.

For real estate, these would be metrics like vacancy rates and secondary-market values.

For infrastructure like HSR, it would be metrics like ridership and capacity utilization.

If $1T of debt-funded investment is created: Assets that are worth $2T - That's good vs Assets worth $500B - that's bad.

Simple as that. It ultimately boils down to analyzing asset quality, not how they were funded.

It's not unproductive short-term government consumption debt like the US, in this case - In the Chinese case the money just goes into the other side of the balance sheet.

And if those assets created are worth more than the debt they utilized to create it, then it's nothing to worry about.

Because that debt is productive and it's backed by those productive tangible things, the economy doesn't lose in the case of liquidation.





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Disclaimer, most of this stuff I got from this Twitter account above, I didn't come up with it personally. He also goes into debt into more technical and maths stuff, like evaluating different assets in China, like HSR for example, going into various asset-specific metrics to determine its valuations and comparing it with other countries, also explaining how assets like infrastructure have lower depreciation rates and how they last for very long times and different rarely discussed specific ways about how those assets tend to get utilized and are worth more on the longer time horizons and why is that, he also lists various non-monetary values that they tend to create for society as a whole. Recommend checking it.
 

Serb

Junior Member
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To put into an understandable context, you can read this article where is explained why the debt burden for Chinese households is even bigger then in USA and increasing

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

in the past 20 years, the household sector in China has had the heaviest debt burden, surpassing even the peak debt burden of US households in 2007. The reason why housing prices in China have been declining since 2022 is due to this heavy debt burden

Of course you can ignore the facts and still base your opinion on numbers without context. I gave the GDP rate just to give an example that both USA and China have debt problems and the latter cannot inject like it did in 2008 as one claimed. Or they can but it will have consequences. And at the end this will happen, because Chinese officials talk a lot and wait without actually doing something and at the end they would have to release multiples of what would have initially sufficed. And this will happen this year when stocks crater again after the initial spike. But of course here no one thinks that stock and financial markets are important and someone else believed that higher interest rates mean that the economy is crushing and maybe that's why the FED keeps them high, to crash it even further ..


I explained this in my last post. China uses debt to build productive assets on the other side of the balance sheet which that debt is also backed by in turn.

So in turn of liquidation waterfall, the economy really doesn't lose anything. Because those assets keep on rising in value/utility.

Urbanization, infrastructure, housing... Not stupid government spending to fill its deficits and administrative payouts like in the US.

Meanwhile, the US uses debt, on the other hand, to finance its entire economic model (consumption) because they don't produce/export nearly anything anymore.

The US debt is more external, unproductive, higher in relative value overall, backed by fiscal budgets instead of assets, there are many differences.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
To put into an understandable context, you can read this article where is explained why the debt burden for Chinese households is even bigger then in USA and increasing

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

in the past 20 years, the household sector in China has had the heaviest debt burden, surpassing even the peak debt burden of US households in 2007. The reason why housing prices in China have been declining since 2022 is due to this heavy debt burden

Of course you can ignore the facts and still base your opinion on numbers without context. I gave the GDP rate just to give an example that both USA and China have debt problems and the latter cannot inject like it did in 2008 as one claimed. Or they can but it will have consequences. And at the end this will happen, because Chinese officials talk a lot and wait without actually doing something and at the end they would have to release multiples of what would have initially sufficed. And this will happen this year when stocks crater again after the initial spike. But of course here no one thinks that stock and financial markets are important and someone else believed that higher interest rates mean that the economy is crushing .. where it's the opposite, i.e, the US economy is booming and investors demand higher rates for their capital and long term rates are increasing and the FED is forced to increase their funding rates even higher to cool it a bit. And if the economy was crashing there will be no demand for loans and rates will drop and as the were negative in the past as central banks tried to force lending and prop up economy
there's different types of debt and not all debt reduces consumption. garbage in, garbage out.

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Mortgage debt has been the biggest driver of the increase in household debt over the past decade and now accounts for more than half of China’s household debt.14 By end-2019, housing-related debt accounted for 55% of household’s total debt (Figure 3), due largely to the booming property market and households’ better access to credit. Housing loans for second and third homes have also increased rapidly. In 2018, 66% of housing loans were for the purchase of a second or third home, a sharp contrast to 2011 when fewer than 30% of home loans were for a second or third home.

While much of China’s household debt has been led by property-related borrowing, consumption borrowing via auto financing and credit card facilities has seen rapid increase too. Card debt has risen strongly, with such debt experiencing a sevenfold surge in total household borrowing from 2% in 2009 to 15% in 2018. Such consumer credit access has been vital for supporting consumption since it allows households to tap into their “expected future earnings or income”, hence enhancing their current spending power via inter-temporal spending

So Chinese debt has increased due to more people having extra income to invest in 2nd and 3rd houses, and extra income to spend on credit card consumption.

The expansion of credit based consumption is consistent with world leading sales in China for everything from
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to
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to
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.

what is the greatest source of household debt in the US? 1st mortgages at 70% overall, but look at the distribution by age (table: Debt Share by Product Type and Age)

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US youth are being strangled by car and student loans at ~20% each. Car loans in the US are not optional, since there is no infrastructure available to avoid cars. Student loans are purely a dead weight cost, since it is monetizing a service that is otherwise socialized.

Despite 70% of US household debt being mortgage related, US home ownership is still lower than China's:

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So what is the US consumer actually consuming if they aren't actually consuming physical products?

The privilege of paying taxes, rent and privatized healthcare costs. AKA the privilege to remain housed outside of prison.

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avg_household_expenses_d_uaoqal
 

Nobo

Junior Member
Registered Member
there's different types of debt and not all debt reduces consumption. garbage in, garbage out.

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So Chinese debt has increased due to more people having extra income to invest in 2nd and 3rd houses, and extra income to spend on credit card consumption.

The expansion of credit based consumption is consistent with world leading sales in China for everything from
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

what is the greatest source of household debt in the US? 1st mortgages at 70% overall, but look at the distribution by age (table: Debt Share by Product Type and Age)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

US youth are being strangled by car and student loans at ~20% each. Car loans in the US are not optional, since there is no infrastructure available to avoid cars. Student loans are purely a dead weight cost, since it is monetizing a service that is otherwise socialized.

Despite 70% of US household debt being mortgage related, US home ownership is still lower than China's:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

So what is the US consumer actually consuming if they aren't actually consuming physical products?

The privilege of paying taxes, rent and privatized healthcare costs. AKA the privilege to remain housed outside of prison.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

avg_household_expenses_d_uaoqal
Expenses on Entertainment+Alcohol in more than expenses on Education+Personal care+Clothing? o_Oo_O
May be not wearing clothes is part of that Entertainment expenses? Or is it premium accounts of p-hub are charging more? :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

generalmeng

New Member
Registered Member
To put this into better context, here are the total debt (government + corporate + household) to GDP ratios for a few other countries.

United States 723.7%
United Kingdom 912.2%
Canada 920.7%
France 938.5%
Japan1323.3%

Unlike China, most of the countries above "benefited" from high inflation in the last 3 years which inflated their nominal GDPs and lowered their debt-to-GDP ratios. For example, the US and UK ratios were over 840% and 1200% respectively in early 2021.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
I asked this question many times on many places in reddit, even the AskEconomics sub where supposly is full of academics and "quality" comments only.

No one explain why usa have over 700% total debt to gdp. While China only have about 260%. And why it would be a problem for China, but not usa. I also asked why media always cherry pick their numbers.

I recieved no academic answer, and I was banned from many of those "quality" economic subs.
 
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