Chinese Economics Thread

sunnymaxi

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China to receive up to $2tn in Middle East sovereign investments by 2030, HKEX CEO says​


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, the world’s second-largest economy, is set to receive $1 trillion to $2 trillion in
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from top
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in the Middle East by 2030 as they look to pivot to Asia amid a rapid rise in their investment capital, the chief executive of
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(HKEX) has said.

The state-controlled wealth funds in the region currently have about $4 trillion in investment capital available and only a small portion of that – approximately 1 per cent to 2 per cent – is being invested in Asia, particularly China, Nicolas Aguzin told delegates at the
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in Riyadh on Monday.

This investment capital is expected to grow to about $10 trillion by the end of this decade and “we estimate somewhere between 10 per cent and 20 per cent will be invested in China”, said Mr Aguzin, a former JP Morgan banker.

“Think about what that means. That’s about $1 trillion to $2 trillion that will be reallocated in investments in that part of the world.”

Sovereign wealth funds in the Middle East, which are some of the largest in the world, invest on behalf of their governments to generate long-term returns.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
Can someone tell me what China is waiting for to print money and support consumption? Do they think the current slowdown is related to supply?
 

KYli

Brigadier
The last thing China wants is another round of hot money floating towards the real estate market. China just wants to keep the housing market afloat but not having another price resurgence that could create a future housing bubble.

Printing money is an easy decision that has long term consequence. As we can see, home prices and renting prices in the US rise substantially higher during the last few years. Even if the inflation might have peaked in the US, the wealth inequality in the US would suffer.
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
If the big four Chinese banks are really struggling, then arguing with Mr.subject_matter_expert12345 over the internet would be the least of your worries. I don't think he was implying the big four Chinese banks were struggling, it seemed like he was trying to support his claims that Chinese analog semi companies aren't doing well by comparing them financially to Chinese state owned banks.

Have a look at the price/book ratio of the Chinese banking industry and you will get a better sense of what people think of the banks' real worth. This below is the P/B of ICBC - meaning that you can buy the net assets of ICBC for 55 cents on the dollar according to accounting statements. If you think it's a good deal then you are welcome to go b*lls deep long Chinese banks if you disagree with the entire market about their worth.

1686687394190.png

The Big 4 won't go under, but you have plenty of regional banks that are effectively insolvent *today*. Henan in July 2022 was an indication of the scale of problems. That there aren't bankruptcies yet is because of the mouthwatering set of regulatory tools in the toolkit to prevent run on banks like what happened with SVB. (When you can censor the media, there are no bank runs because nobody knows about it.)

My point is simple - looking at the size of revenues / balance sheet of banks are not indicative of the strength of the banks, much like how "company abc makes xyz number of wafers" is in anyway necessarily an indication of a semiconductor company's capabilities.

How many wafers did AMD make before it had to spin off its fabs into GlobalFoundries to avoid bankruptcy?
 

HighGround

Senior Member
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Have a look at the price/book ratio of the Chinese banking industry and you will get a better sense of what people think of the banks' real worth. This below is the P/B of ICBC - meaning that you can buy the net assets of ICBC for 55 cents on the dollar according to accounting statements. If you think it's a good deal then you are welcome to go b*lls deep long Chinese banks if you disagree with the entire market about their worth.

To be fair, can't this also be a reflection of how opaque Chinese markets are to most people? And you know how negative Westerners like to be on anything regarding China, regardless of whether it has factual basis behind it. Coincidentally (or not) that's also where the vast majority of financial institutions are based.
 
D

Deleted member 24525

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Have a look at the price/book ratio of the Chinese banking industry and you will get a better sense of what people think of the banks' real worth. This below is the P/B of ICBC - meaning that you can buy the net assets of ICBC for 55 cents on the dollar according to accounting statements. If you think it's a good deal then you are welcome to go b*lls deep long Chinese banks if you disagree with the entire market about their worth.

View attachment 114454

The Big 4 won't go under, but you have plenty of regional banks that are effectively insolvent *today*. Henan in July 2022 was an indication of the scale of problems. That there aren't bankruptcies yet is because of the mouthwatering set of regulatory tools in the toolkit to prevent run on banks like what happened with SVB. (When you can censor the media, there are no bank runs because nobody knows about it.)

My point is simple - looking at the size of revenues / balance sheet of banks are not indicative of the strength of the banks, much like how "company abc makes xyz number of wafers" is in anyway necessarily an indication of a semiconductor company's capabilities.

How many wafers did AMD make before it had to spin off its fabs into GlobalFoundries to avoid bankruptcy?
SOEs in China are near-universally priced at below book value because everybody knows they are taxed at higher rates and obligated to invest according to national priorities rather than just maximizing returns on equity. They also tend to be in capital intensive industries which lowers price to asset ratios by default.
Whether a bank is solvent or not depends on whether the defaulted share of its loans is large enough to put its equity in the negative. Price to asset ratios on the stock market tell you nothing about this. Furthermore having cash on hand that is only a small fraction of deposit obligations is standard practice for banking the world over.
You said it yourself, the media is heavily censored, yet you also think that the collective decision making of stock market actors with minimal knowledge of the bank's real conditions will somehow create a price that accurately reflects its financial situation?
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
To be fair, can't this also be a reflection of how opaque Chinese markets are to most people? And you know how negative Westerners like to be on anything regarding China, regardless of whether it has factual basis behind it. Coincidentally (or not) that's also where the vast majority of financial institutions are based.

There are plenty of Chinese companies that trade at astronomical valuations. So this is not due to any 'opacity'.

SOEs in China are near-universally priced at below book value because everybody knows they are taxed at higher rates and obligated to invest according to national priorities rather than just maximizing returns on equity. They also tend to be in capital intensive industries which lowers price to asset ratios by default.
Whether a bank is solvent or not depends on whether the defaulted share of its loans is large enough to put its equity in the negative. Price to asset ratios on the stock market tell you nothing about this. Furthermore having cash on hand that is only a small fraction of deposit obligations is standard practice for banking the world over.
You said it yourself, the media is heavily censored, yet you also think that the collective decision making of stock market actors with minimal knowledge of the bank's real conditions will somehow create a price that accurately reflects its financial situation?

I would suggest you understand Accounting 101 before jumping to a conclusion:

Price-to-book value (P/B) is the ratio of the market value of a company's shares (share price) over its
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of equity
. The book value of equity, in turn, is the value of a company's
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expressed on the balance sheet. The book value is defined as the difference between the book value of assets and the book value of
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.


I specifically said 'effectively insolvent' - meaning that if they were forced to sell their assets, the resulting value from a transaction is insufficient in satisfying the obligations. This insolvency is not necessarily triggered as the government can force participants not to recognize said losses.

As a specific example, Zunyi Road and Bridge (biggest LGFV in Zunyi) 'restructured' its loans with banks. Lenders were forced to take a 20 year extension on the 16bln of loans lent to Zunyi Road and Bridge, and the first 10 years of that extension is known as PIK - pay in kind - i.e the interest accrues but banks receive no cash interest, at 3% to 4.5%.

In another example, China Fortune Land restructured 5bln USD of its foreign liabilities - in this extension, lenders were forced to accept 8 year at 2.5% interest rate, paid in kind, due on the day of the extended maturity (I have friends who actually worked on this transaction who characterized the context of why this happened).

(Keep in mind, the bank/lenders can buy Government bonds at returns above that rate.)

The critical point here is that *IF* the assets of Zunyi Road and Bridge/China Fortune Land were productive assets - they would generate enough income to service the debt that they raised in building these assets. But clearly its not working as government regulators had to force bank lenders to take an extension on the loans at below market rates. Someone f'd up here, but the bank is forced to eat the loss.

When the banks are controlled by the Party and the Party asks you to jump, you ask how high. This is why the banking sector in China is trading the way they do.

Finally, investors in China do not rely on the media to inform themselves of what's actually happening behind the scenes. For example, a banking investor with a degree from PKU Guanghua will likely have a classmate who literally works at a provincial-level CBIRC - a WeChat conversation with said classmate tells you way more than you will ever know from the heavily censored press.
 
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mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes, there's a short term problem with affordability
Looks like a structural trend to my eyes.

im-798282



Note that the incomes of China today are much lower than America had in the early 2000s. So this chart actually understates the issue.

I don't understand why people aren't willing to accept that housing policy in the post-reform period has been a fiasco in China. Together with the 1 child policy, it was one of two big failures.
 

KYli

Brigadier
One child policy is fundamental for China especially during the early days of reopening. Without one child policy, there would be at least another 400 to 500 millions people in China. How much resources would need to allocate and how many jobs need to create for these people? Does anyone think China could give people the same kind of education, nutrients, and resources if China has additional 500 millions people.

So no, one child policy is a right policy and this policy is one of the reasons why China can develop so rapidly. However, one child policy has run its course. CPC's mistake is not relaxing and ending one child policy sooner. People should be allowed to have 2 child in early 00s. And 3 child policy should enact in at least 10 to 15 years ago. But no government is perfect and no one can predict such a rapid decrease in the birth rate. Although, it is still CPC's responsibility to fix this problem and they need to develop and derive a feasible long term plan quickly in order to arrest the decline of births.

As for housing policy, without the old housing policy, there won't be an economic miracle after the great recession. Land sales is the main source of income for infrastructure and urban planning. Most of the development and modernization in China during the last decade can't do without land sales. It is just a lesser of the two evils but a necessary for housing prices to increase. The mistake is that the government didn't take enough action to prevent the rise and many local governments have become addicted to the easy money from land sales and refuse to alleviate housing prices even after pressure from the central government.

As for debt, China has one of the world highest saving rates, it is not unwise to compare China and the US for the debt to disposal income ratio. Most Chinese household has enough saving to pay off their debts if needed or at least there are enough savings to keep paying mortgages for a long period of time for many Chinese household due to the very high saving rates. US problem is low to negative saving rates and high personal debts.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Looks like a structural trend to my eyes.

im-798282



Note that the incomes of China today are much lower than America had in the early 2000s. So this chart actually understates the issue.

I don't understand why people aren't willing to accept that housing policy in the post-reform period has been a fiasco in China. Together with the 1 child policy, it was one of two big failures.
Meanwhile incomes are growing every year and house prices have been dropping for some time now. So the problem will solve itself eventually, that's why I think it's short term.

House prices are also highly skewed by the most desirable cities, so the average person in an average town would have a much more affordable life. Nobody deserves to own an apartment in Shanghai just because they want to

But mostly I'm just saying that high house prices are an unfortunate side product of smart decisions. Look at Venezuela, not Sweden, for what happens when you build lots of houses without being a rich country with strong industry. They called it great mission housing Venezuela. It's better to first invest in sustainable economic development and into social housing later. A booming real estate market being positive for the economy is another great side effect.
 
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