Chinese Economics Thread

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
Interesting. I would have put urbanization as the biggest driver of growth for the next 20-30 years. This is an excerpt from a Reddit post I made a while back


I've never bought the "investor confidence" argument because I believe greed always trumps fear. Sure, entrepreneurs in sectors the government doesn't like are going to be hit hard - and the unlucky ones might find themselves in prison - but there are always new ones willing to take risks. It's especially easy in China where the government does your market research for you and straight out tells you the sectors it wants to grow.

Ultimately, as you said, markets bounce back.

That comes with its own pathologies and I'm deeply ambivalent about China going down this road. I recognize the necessity of a strong financial system and I hope the government is capable enough to stop the inevitable parade of bubbles, crashes, and frauds that will come with financialization. Also, the China's industrial base must be unharmed by this - the deindustrialization that happened in Britain and America must be prevented at all costs. If the price for that is a third-rate financial system forever, so be it.

I wonder how much AI and surveillance technology can help with upward accountability from local governments to the central government. Something like this (Stephen Chen and SCMP, so take with sodium)?
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Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, but I take the Legalist view that the scum of the Earth can be made to behave righteously with the consistent application of law.

I encourage you to post more of your thoughts about your long-term view (1-2 decades) of where China is heading.
Urbanization will grow - but unfortunately previous rates of infrastructure buildout was not sustainable - so relatively speaking it won't be a contributor to future GDP growth. Put it this way, we've 'pulled forward' a lot of infrastructure build out and unfortunately a lot of it was built in the wrong places. Net/net, its probably a wash. Furthermore, urbanization requires migrants actually planting roots - this is why Hukou reforms are critical. The problem here is that those who want to move to cities can't afford to own property in those cities where they want to move to, and yet significant downturn in property prices also crushes consumption in urban areas where majority of consumption happens. So the only way to do this is to 'grow your way out of it' by keeping real estate flat and growing other parts of economy/disposable income. Marking down Tier 1 city real estate by 50% is how we have a riot / repeat of 1989.

Mittlestand in Germany / Advisory Committees in German enterprises is what they're modeling after. This is why there's a focus on Little Giants as part of industrial upgrade. We shall see, what you and I think doesn't matter - it's what policymakers decide that will matter in terms of what market cap to GDP makes sense.

We'll see on local governance - what Xi labels as "Full Process People's Democracy" is thus far not yet significant enough to move the needle but it's something to watch.

The long term is made up of many short terms - especially given where we are in the reform cycle - the next year or two are crucially important. The base effect gets easier (as real estate shrink + other parts grow) over time.
 
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Deleted member 23272

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The gap between the US and Chinese gdp's has grown nominally for the first time in years, but its entirely due to inflation and the appreciation of the US dollar. With the fed reversing interest rates and the yuan improving to the dollar, this disparity should be rectified this year.
 

TK3600

Major
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So to sum up abeconomics12345's argument there are many long term goal of China going against short term growth. Therefore a rapid resurgence of gdp in 2023 is unlikely. Am I getting this straight?
 

luminary

Senior Member
Registered Member
I've been hearing about rising levels of China's national debt. I was wondering what the consensus was on it, if this impacts future economic planning, and if it really is a problem like the pundits are making it out to be.
 

canonicalsadhu

Junior Member
Registered Member
Then all the industrial upgrade we talk about here are all great - its just that the base is too small today. Like sure we get a couple hundred billion of growth from EVs and a few hundred billion from Semiconductors (now) - that's all great - except the offset is a 5 trln real estate hole. Aviation will be big - it will be a trillion+ industry, as will automobiles (which China is in process of winning).
I think you're ignoring the effect of technological progress and industrial upgrade on currency exchange rates and hence on nominal GDP contribution.
China and SKorea are two examples of countries which have made tremendous technological progress and industrial upgrade over the last two decades, and their currency vs the dollar has strengthened. Meanwhile, countries which haven't made much tech progress like Russia, Brazil, India, and many others had their currency plummet vs the dollar over the past two decades. These countries would have double or triple their current GDP if their currency didn't depreciate.
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
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I think you're ignoring the effect of technological progress and industrial upgrade on currency exchange rates and hence on nominal GDP contribution.
China and SKorea are two examples of countries which have made tremendous technological progress and industrial upgrade over the last two decades, and their currency vs the dollar has strengthened. Meanwhile, countries which haven't made much tech progress like Russia, Brazil, India, and many others had their currency plummet vs the dollar over the past two decades. These countries would have double or triple their current GDP if their currency didn't depreciate.
You can have superior technological progress and industrial upgrade *while* you piss away a lot of capital on roads/bridges to nowhere at the same time. These two points are not mutually exclusive.

So to sum up abeconomics12345's argument there are many long term goal of China going against short term growth. Therefore a rapid resurgence of gdp in 2023 is unlikely. Am I getting this straight?

If GDP comes back in 2023 at 8% while stimulating like a fiend on infrastructure and we go back to speculation in real estate, I would be short term bullish and long term bearish - we would be looking at a situation like Japan in 10 years, except not as rich. I don't know about you but I'm all about delayed gratification.
 

canonicalsadhu

Junior Member
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You can have superior technological progress and industrial upgrade *while* you piss away a lot of capital on roads/bridges to nowhere at the same time. These two points are not mutually exclusive.
Ok? But that wasn’t my point. I was commenting on your repeated claim that EVs, semiconductors, and other high tech “only contribute few hundreds of billions” to GDP. That’s clearly misleading. A high tech country will have a stronger currency so that many of the services inside the country that have nothing to do with high tech (such as retail, wholesale, storage, transportation, utilities, education, healthcare, finance, insurance, etc.) will be more expensive which will significantly boost GDP numbers.
For example over the years Brazil’s currency has plummeted to 1/3rd its value. If Brazil managed to develop some high tech industries worth a hundred billion dollars and maintained its currency strength like SKorea then instead of having a GDP of $1.5T it would have a GDP of $4.5T. So high tech industries of few hundred billion dollars actually contribute trillions of dollars to GDP by maintaining the strength of the currency.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
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Ok? But that wasn’t my point. I was commenting on your repeated claim that EVs, semiconductors, and other high tech “only contribute few hundreds of billions” to GDP. That’s clearly misleading. A high tech country will have a stronger currency so that many of the services inside the country that have nothing to do with high tech (such as retail, wholesale, storage, transportation, utilities, education, healthcare, finance, insurance, etc.) will be more expensive which will significantly boost GDP numbers.
For example over the years Brazil’s currency has plummeted to 1/3rd its value. If Brazil managed to develop some high tech industries worth a hundred billion dollars and maintained its currency strength like SKorea then instead of having a GDP of $1.5T it would have a GDP of $4.5T. So high tech industries of few hundred billion dollars actually contribute trillions of dollars to GDP by maintaining the strength of the currency.

Moving up the value chain has a multiplier effect on the economy as a whole. Look how the South Korean economy advanced rapidly after South Korean auto and semiconductor industry became competitive. Creating high valued goods allow you to pay higher salaries for less work done, and higher paid workers will be able to spend more money on goods and services, boosting local economy as well.
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
Ok? But that wasn’t my point. I was commenting on your repeated claim that EVs, semiconductors, and other high tech “only contribute few hundreds of billions” to GDP. That’s clearly misleading. A high tech country will have a stronger currency so that many of the services inside the country that have nothing to do with high tech (such as retail, wholesale, storage, transportation, utilities, education, healthcare, finance, insurance, etc.) will be more expensive which will significantly boost GDP numbers.
For example over the years Brazil’s currency has plummeted to 1/3rd its value. If Brazil managed to develop some high tech industries worth a hundred billion dollars and maintained its currency strength like SKorea then instead of having a GDP of $1.5T it would have a GDP of $4.5T. So high tech industries of few hundred billion dollars actually contribute trillions of dollars to GDP by maintaining the strength of the currency.

Yes, and instead Brazil pissed away all its oil profits via the carwash scandal and have had an excuse of a government for the better parts of the past decade. What's your point? That Korea has a better set of institutions than Brazil?

Have you not read the size of the hole from real estate that I've clearly articulated?

Go listen to Liu He's speech yesterday from Davos - real estate contributes to some 50% of local government finances - where are these hospitals/schools going to come from if local governments go bankrupt? If there are no schools or teachers, who is going to train the high caliber talent for the higher value added industries if they can't do algebra like the Brits?

Chinese real estate is literally *the biggest* industry in the world and a deflation by 30% of said industry is not going to be offset over 1 year. How difficult is it to comprehend this simple fact?
 
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