Chinese Economics Thread

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
To what extent is this problem a replay of the Silicon Valley problem? It sounds quite similar. Ultimately what drives people out of these research/tech. mega centers is the housing price. If they can't afford to live in Shanghai, then they can't work there. Companies have the choice of either paying astronomical salaries for employees to work there, or opening research & development centers else where. The latter is becoming more sensible in the US - especially with work-from-home - due to the cost of living inflation in major tech. centers. I imagine the situation is even worse in China since the price-income ratio is higher in Chinese mega cities compared to Silicon Valley & New York City.

Inevitably, this has to change. Companies can't be profitable if they have to pay employees half a million dollars a year just so they can afford apartments in Shanghai. The Chinese government can facilitate the process by investing more in key infrastructure improvements in second tier cities, by which I don't mean roads or bridges, but quality of life benefits like health care, education, and environment improvements, that would attract highly skilled workers.
You're spot on in your diagnosis of the problem- this is the problem with urbanization in general. Inevitably - the problem is least pronounced in Chongqing, that is precisely why Huang Qifan was selected to be part of the land factor reform policy committee.

This *has to change* is a statement of *should* - I don't disagree - but I'm not in the business of talking about should/would - I'm in the business of anticipating what *will* happen.

Unfortunately what happened in the past decade is that every Chinese city thought they could be another Shanghai and built out all the basic infrastructure like roads/bridges for populations that never showed up - have a look at a city like Xiaoyi in Shanxi - that's another Hegang in waiting. Local governments are out of money to make these investments. In terms of healthcare - look at what Sanming in Fujian had to do as a result of NHSA bankruptcy - more reforms like these are going to be pushed out in 2023 and years beyond. Unfortunately these reforms are not pro-growth in the short term as it involves reducing the *cost* of healthcare (which means reducing corporate revenues/profits and employee compensation).


Have a watch of this video to understand the pressure of healthcare and what they're trying to do (in terms of balancing the need to foster innovation and cost reduction) - needless to say this all needs to be completed *before* the demographic bomb we've got in 2030s and beyond.

I have been to Zhengzhou, albeit not recently.
Yes, Zhengzhou is competing against other urban centres, but the fact remains that it is the capital of the province and will eventually end up as a megacity with all the institutions and amenities that make a city a nice place to live.

But in the meantime, Zhengzhou have to will compete on cheap labour and cheap land as a manufacturing hub. But once they have a critical mass of companies, universities etc, they should have a self-sustaining cluster that can move up the value chain.

Shanghai and Shenzhen are expensive and have limited land available. In comparison, Zhengzhou sits on a flat plain which allows it to sprawl as much as it wants, which should keep land costs in check.

Yep, I expect Q1 to be muted at best.

I'm assuming that you were in Japan during COVID and didn't experience the effects of a hard lockdown like in Europe or what Chinese cities just experienced. It's an exhausting experience and the exhaustion/malaise in the population lingers on for weeks afterwards.

That's why I am discounting all the trailing and current indicators on Chinese consumer demand.

Chinese New Year will be the first opportunity for much of the Chinese population to stop working 6 days a week, really rest and then come back recharged.
I'm not going to go further into the debate on solar - for one I'm not a SME and am not deep in the weeds on the numbers - but you've not really laid out how it can add meaningfully to GDP growth in 2023 vs. 2022.

If we are talking institutions, Zhengzhou in 2021/2022 has shown precisely why it is not attractive - the floods in 2021 (someone in the muni government got sacked for that), then we had the COVID health code mis-use fiasco as well as the mortgage boycotts in the summer, and then we had this Foxconn brouhaha. Anyone who is considered upper middle class and have options are looking to GTFO.

Let me assure you that I've seen my share of lockdowns (March 2020 in NYC) over the past 3 years personally and have stayed in close touch with friends/family in the Shanghai lockdown. What you did not illustrate is the lack of desire to consume as a result of these lockdowns - these things take time to come back (for example the casual-fication of office wear - friends literally wear hoodies to the office working in Lujiazui now vs. suits before - that sir, is consumption downgrade). I've spoken to the management team of Tingyi (they make the Kangshifu noodles) and they are seeing consumption downgrade from people eating Luosifen/Takeout (20+ rmb) to their high end instant noodles (priced at 10RMB). This is the part of "reduced willingness to spend" phenomenon that is the feature of the new normal. These things might go away but they take time - not things that change in the span of a few quarters.

Tier 1 cities “not having land” is the biggest misconception - they have plenty of land - they just don't have sufficient quotas to convert rural farmland into urban commercial land in context of the "red line of 190mln Mu of farmland". That is being reformed as there are trials of a landmarket to facilitate inter-provincial land transfer. Have a read of Zhou Qiren's 城乡中国 as he illustrates exactly the genesis of this problem; and then listen to any of Huang Qifan's videos about what they need to reform and why Chongqing of all places does not have a 'there is no land problem'. You can also get into Lan Xiaohuan's 置身事内 if you want a simpler version of the genesis.

New city clusters will be created, and I would bet that it will be the Chongqing/Chengdu/Changsha/Hefei/Xi'an of the world ahead of a place like Zhengzhou (no offence if you're from there).

But none of this matters for 2023 growth - these are longer term implications.

I'll end the fact that the Party clearly acknowledge a lot of challenges/risks in its 3rd historic resolution released in Nov 2021. If anything things have deteriorated since then as a result of Omicron + Shanghai lockdown in terms of the consumer/business confidence. There are a lot of opportunities in China and a lot to like, but one should not be blind to the challenges.
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm not conflating the 2. There is a reason why I stopped with only 40% of excess savings being spent. That leaves 60% still sitting in the bank or being put in an investment somewhere.




In the US, we also saw household debt/GDP increase by 5% during the pandemic. That is comparable to the 6% China figure you cited.
And it looks like 40-50% of excess savings in the US was ultimately spent
*sigh*

1673913398014.png

Get your facts straight. US household debt/GDP declined over the past 3 years.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
You're spot on in your diagnosis of the problem- this is the problem with urbanization in general. Inevitably - the problem is least pronounced in Chongqing, that is precisely why Huang Qifan was selected to be part of the land factor reform policy committee.

This *has to change* is a statement of *should* - I don't disagree - but I'm not in the business of talking about should/would - I'm in the business of anticipating what *will* happen.

Unfortunately what happened in the past decade is that every Chinese city thought they could be another Shanghai and built out all the basic infrastructure like roads/bridges for populations that never showed up - have a look at a city like Xiaoyi in Shanxi - that's another Hegang in waiting. Local governments are out of money to make these investments. In terms of healthcare - look at what Sanming in Fujian had to do as a result of NHSA bankruptcy - more reforms like these are going to be pushed out in 2023 and years beyond. Unfortunately these reforms are not pro-growth in the short term as it involves reducing the *cost* of healthcare (which means reducing corporate revenues/profits and employee compensation).


Have a watch of this video to understand the pressure of healthcare and what they're trying to do (in terms of balancing the need to foster innovation and cost reduction) - needless to say this all needs to be completed *before* the demographic bomb we've got in 2030s and beyond.


I'm not going to go further into the debate on solar - for one I'm not a SME and am not deep in the weeds on the numbers - but you've not really laid out how it can add meaningfully to GDP growth in 2023 vs. 2022.

If we are talking institutions, Zhengzhou in 2021/2022 has shown precisely why it is not attractive - the floods in 2021 (someone in the muni government got sacked for that), then we had the COVID health code mis-use fiasco as well as the mortgage boycotts in the summer, and then we had this Foxconn brouhaha. Anyone who is considered upper middle class and have options are looking to GTFO.

Let me assure you that I've seen my share of lockdowns (March 2020 in NYC) over the past 3 years personally and have stayed in close touch with friends/family in the Shanghai lockdown. What you did not illustrate is the lack of desire to consume as a result of these lockdowns - these things take time to come back (for example the casual-fication of office wear - friends literally wear hoodies to the office working in Lujiazui now vs. suits before - that sir, is consumption downgrade). I've spoken to the management team of Tingyi (they make the Kangshifu noodles) and they are seeing consumption downgrade from people eating Luosifen/Takeout (20+ rmb) to their high end instant noodles (priced at 10RMB). This is the part of "reduced willingness to spend" phenomenon that is the feature of the new normal. These things might go away but they take time - not things that change in the span of a few quarters.

Tier 1 cities “not having land” is the biggest misconception - they have plenty of land - they just don't have sufficient quotas to convert rural farmland into urban commercial land in context of the "red line of 190mln Mu of farmland". That is being reformed as there are trials of a landmarket to facilitate inter-provincial land transfer. Have a read of Zhou Qiren's 城乡中国 as he illustrates exactly the genesis of this problem; and then listen to any of Huang Qifan's videos about what they need to reform and why Chongqing of all places does not have a 'there is no land problem'. You can also get into Lan Xiaohuan's 置身事内 if you want a simpler version of the genesis.

New city clusters will be created, and I would bet that it will be the Chongqing/Chengdu/Changsha/Hefei/Xi'an of the world ahead of a place like Zhengzhou (no offence if you're from there).

But none of this matters for 2023 growth - these are longer term implications.

I'll end the fact that the Party clearly acknowledge a lot of challenges/risks in its 3rd historic resolution released in Nov 2021. If anything things have deteriorated since then as a result of Omicron + Shanghai lockdown in terms of the consumer/business confidence. There are a lot of opportunities in China and a lot to like, but one should not be blind to the challenges.
I cannot find any references to a medical bankruptcy in Sanming, Fujian, in either Chinese or English, in Google and Baidu.

Anyhow these are just a few local setbacks even if as serious as you say. One too can point at places like Gary, Indiana or Flint, Michigan with breakdown of basic infrastructure and suburban bankruptcies due to high per capita infrastructure costs.

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abenomics12345

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I cannot find any references to a medical bankruptcy in Sanming, Fujian, in either Chinese or English, in Google and Baidu.

Anyhow these are just a few local setbacks even if as serious as you say. One too can point at places like Gary, Indiana or Flint, Michigan with breakdown of basic infrastructure and suburban bankruptcies due to high per capita infrastructure costs.

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It was avoided precisely because of the necessary reforms in Sanming. If there is any misunderstanding, Sanming is an example of a success story. The difficulty is really pushing that across the entire country before in the 2030s when there is the mother of all demographic bombs. This is a fact that anyone here who's interested in understanding China *has* to accept. There will be a lot of old people and the healthcare costs, unless arrested, will bankrupt NHSA.

By the way, as someone whose career is a bet on the Chinese economy, this isn't something I'm terribly worried about at all. I'm more excited about the opportunities from healthcare reform.

I really don't give a shit about how Flint is an excuse of a city to live in and I'm not interested in talking about how shitty the US is in this thread to feel good about myself. I'm interested in learning the risks/opportunities in China as to how it can succeed and overcome its challenges. If you want to have that discussion we can have a separate thread.

Which, coincidentally, water issues in the US is another 'mother of all' underinvestment. Last when I spoke to the CEO of American Water Works (who benefits from further investments), the US is 'reinvesting' in water infrastructure at a rate of 250 year replacement cycle when these pipes only last 100 years maximum. If people here live in the US I suggest you buy Brita water filters.
 

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paiemon

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It was avoided precisely because of the necessary reforms in Sanming. If there is any misunderstanding, Sanming is an example of a success story. The difficulty is really pushing that across the entire country before in the 2030s when there is the mother of all demographic bombs. This is a fact that anyone here who's interested in understanding China *has* to accept. There will be a lot of old people and the healthcare costs, unless arrested, will bankrupt NHSA.

By the way, as someone whose career is a bet on the Chinese economy, this isn't something I'm terribly worried about at all. I'm more excited about the opportunities from healthcare reform.

I really don't give a shit about how Flint is an excuse of a city to live in and I'm not interested in talking about how shitty the US is in this thread to feel good about myself. I'm interested in learning the risks/opportunities in China as to how it can succeed and overcome its challenges. If you want to have that discussion we can have a separate thread.

Which, coincidentally, water issues in the US is another 'mother of all' underinvestment. Last when I spoke to the CEO of American Water Works (who benefits from further investments), the US is 'reinvesting' in water infrastructure at a rate of 250 year replacement cycle when these pipes only last 100 years maximum. If people here live in the US I suggest you buy Brita water filters.
I totally agree that bending the health care curve to avoid bankruptcy (and this applies not just to China, but really almost all middle and upper income countries). I am curious to your opinion as to how that can be achieved with the coordination of (providers, suppliers, etc) whose livelihood is derived from healthcare spending while still maintaining and improving the standard of care? While a blunt option is simply to reduce payments, changes in incentives could reduce the provision of care which is also detrimental. Do you think that the solution is widespread adoption of innovation in delivery and technology (such as AI assisted medicine) combined with massive economies of scale such that healthcare becomes net neutral or provide a slight boost to the overall economy vs being the headwind that it currently is?
 
D

Deleted member 23272

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It's the same with 0-COVID. The reason it was removed is because it had served its purpose, the population was by and large vaccinated and the lethality of the circulating variants was much lower than the original ones.
I guess we'll agree to disagree, since I do maintain my stance that both Zero Covid and the tech crackdown were ended simply because they became unsustainable and created severe societal and economic consequences, rather than the party prudently deciding that the policies had served their purpose.

In the end though, I think we can at least agree that some relief could be found that China's returning to normalcy.
 

tphuang

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Full-year +3% [Prev.+8.4%] Q4 GDP YoY +2.9%[Est.+1.8%;Prev.+3.9%] Q4 GDP QoQ +0.0%[Prev.+3.9%]

Dec urban surveyed unemployment rate 5.5%[Est. 5.8%; Prev. 5.7%] Jan-Dec urban fixed assets investment +5.1% y/y [Est.+5.00%;Prev.+5.3%] Dec Industrial value-added +1.3% y/y [Est.+0.5%;Prev.+2.2%] Dec Retail sales -1.8% y/y [Est.-7.8%;Prev.-5.9%]

In December,
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's total retail sales were recorded at 4.05 trillion yuan, dropping 1.8% y/y or down 0.14% m/m. Among them, retail sales of goods were 3.64 trillion yuan, which dropped by 0.1% y/y; Total revenue for the catering industry was 415.7 billion yuan, fell 14.1%.

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's Jan-Dec nationwide fixed-asset investment increased by 5.1% y/y to 57.2 trillion yuan, recovered by 0.49% m/m. The investments in
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rose 4.5% y/y in the full year, and the
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industry added 9.1% y/y.

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's Dec industry output increased by 1.3% y/y or rose by 0.06% m/m.
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refinery +2.5% to 60 million tons. Power generation +3.0% to 0.76 TWh. Automobile production -16.7% to 2.49 mln units.
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production -2.6% to 1.12 trillion tons.

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's Jan-Dec
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development investment fell by 10.0% y/y to 13.29 trillion yuan. Residential housing sales areas dropped by 24.3% y/y to 13.6 billion square meters, and the total sales dropped 26.8% y/y to 13.3 trillion yuan. Sentiment 94.35


I will say that the retail numbers came out to be better than I expected given how bad covid and lockdowns got in those last couple of months.

I also think the fact that they grew 2.9% in Q4 seems to not jive with some of the reporting on the ground. The auto industry store visits in Nov/Dec was horrible.
 

xlitter

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Registered Member

Full-year +3% [Prev.+8.4%] Q4 GDP YoY +2.9%[Est.+1.8%;Prev.+3.9%] Q4 GDP QoQ +0.0%[Prev.+3.9%]

Dec urban surveyed unemployment rate 5.5%[Est. 5.8%; Prev. 5.7%] Jan-Dec urban fixed assets investment +5.1% y/y [Est.+5.00%;Prev.+5.3%] Dec Industrial value-added +1.3% y/y [Est.+0.5%;Prev.+2.2%] Dec Retail sales -1.8% y/y [Est.-7.8%;Prev.-5.9%]

In December,
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's total retail sales were recorded at 4.05 trillion yuan, dropping 1.8% y/y or down 0.14% m/m. Among them, retail sales of goods were 3.64 trillion yuan, which dropped by 0.1% y/y; Total revenue for the catering industry was 415.7 billion yuan, fell 14.1%.

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's Jan-Dec nationwide fixed-asset investment increased by 5.1% y/y to 57.2 trillion yuan, recovered by 0.49% m/m. The investments in
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rose 4.5% y/y in the full year, and the
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industry added 9.1% y/y.

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's Dec industry output increased by 1.3% y/y or rose by 0.06% m/m.
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refinery +2.5% to 60 million tons. Power generation +3.0% to 0.76 TWh. Automobile production -16.7% to 2.49 mln units.
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production -2.6% to 1.12 trillion tons.

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's Jan-Dec
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development investment fell by 10.0% y/y to 13.29 trillion yuan. Residential housing sales areas dropped by 24.3% y/y to 13.6 billion square meters, and the total sales dropped 26.8% y/y to 13.3 trillion yuan. Sentiment 94.35


I will say that the retail numbers came out to be better than I expected given how bad covid and lockdowns got in those last couple of months.

I also think the fact that they grew 2.9% in Q4 seems to not jive with some of the reporting on the ground. The auto industry store visits in Nov/Dec was horrible.
The most serious decline in the fourth quarter was in December, but the growth of automobiles was 4.6, which was much higher than the annual level, but this is normal. The demand for car purchases and subsidies at the end of the year is superimposed. Here are the detailed data!
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