Chinese Economics Thread

tphuang

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I will say this on that wsj article. American official may push for decoupling, but it's not working out in real practice despite tariffs, threats and everything else. The reality is that many American consumers and products depend on Chinese manufacturing and supply chain. If you are not going to use Chinese supply chain, then there has to be reasonable alternatives. In many cases like Solar, there just aren't alternatives. As such, Chinese companies will simply move production to ASEAN countries or Mexico and get assembly done there, but it will still rely on the much cheaper Chinese supply chain and technology (may not all be produced in China itself). So while China's export to America has remained flat for a few years, there is quite an increase in China -> 3rd country -> America. As BRI continues to make China -> 3rd country more efficient, they can do more of this offshoring of production/assembly without increasing cost too much.

The more recent example of this is IRA. A hugely complex bill signed to avoid the dominant Chinese battery supply chain. Guess what, the nickel processing plant was set up in a JV in Indonesia to comply with the bill and still use Chinese management/tech. CATL is setting up a very complex ownership structure with Ford to manufacture batteries in America. Through all of this, Chinese company is still in control of the product and getting paid. Companies will always seek out the best product for themselves. The only way American gov't can decouple from China completely is if there are viable alternatives or if Chinese gov't actively sanctions its own company the way America did with semiconductor. China will not do that.

And then there are the arguments of offshoring production from China. For example, Chinese companies have been pushing production to Vietnam to take advantage of the cheaper labor there. People talk about this as a problem. But why is this a problem if China is moving up in value chain and getting out of the low end manufacturing. Why would china continue to manufacture furnitures, when it can manufacture cars? As salaries continue to go up, they will have to move to higher and higher valued manufacturing.

But I would say this. Western economies are likely to be in decline. Energy and resources are more important than ever. China's trade with US and EU are likely to be flat for a while. Same with Japan and SK. However, China's trade with ASEAN countries and the rest of global south is likely to continue to increase at high rate. China will help more of these countries to transition their economy to digital economies and industry 4.0. All of which will bring in growth. China's trade with Russia is getting close to $200 billion this year and will likely hit $250 billion next year and go over $300 billion by the second half of this decade as oil/gas pipelines get redirected from Europe to China. There is still a lot to grow in China's trades with ASEAN countries. I see that over 3 million new cars are sold in ASEAN countries a year. If Chinese companies can capture 1/3 of that, then it can make $40 billion in just auto export. And then you add in battery export, renewables, digital economy and industrial/power chips. There is a whole lot of trade growth left in the tank. Between China and Latin America, trade was already up over $425 billion last year. As BRI/free trade agreements conclude and auto exports increase, this number will also continue to bloom over time. This is no longer 2008 when China depended on exporting to US and Europe for its economic growth.
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
You know, that is the bizarre thing about the US launch trade war against China, and the US launched tech war against car.

What about the cars?

IIRC, the Chinese government since ancient CCP timez, said that the car industry was a barometer on how technologically and industrially advanced a nation was. Needless to say, Deng kind of knew China was not that advanced. Hence all those joint ventures with foreign car companies to learn something.

The car today, is basically a computer on wheels. With the self-driving, that is a very sophisticated machine. It is electric too.

China is leading the way. And not peep from the Americans.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
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You know, that is the bizarre thing about the US launch trade war against China, and the US launched tech war against car.

What about the cars?

IIRC, the Chinese government since ancient CCP timez, said that the car industry was a barometer on how technologically and industrially advanced a nation was. Needless to say, Deng kind of knew China was not that advanced. Hence all those joint ventures with foreign car companies to learn something.

The car today, is basically a computer on wheels. With the self-driving, that is a very sophisticated machine. It is electric too.

China is leading the way. And not peep from the Americans.
Bro they prefer muscle cars, EV are for sissies for rednecks nobody beat a V8 eight cylinder gas guzzler engine. ;)
 

measuredingabens

Junior Member
Registered Member
You are right. The views and aims of the US administration and hawks are retarded and delusional to be honest.

One of their objectives is to stop "indigenous Chinese innovation" pray tell how they plan to achieve that?
Ban Chinese from starting businesses? Ban research in China? Sanction all STEM professors and students?
There are serious issues with anglosphere discourse on China as a whole and especially in economics and technological development. Outside of being unwilling to see anything positive of a perceived enemy, there is a whole host of problematic biases and prejudices in those discussions. The view that China cannot innovate and can only copy is something most experts have largely shaken off but is still heavily prevalent for the common layman and those experts are still beholden to the opinions of said laymen, which helps lead to the poorly thought out sanctions that the US keeps putting out today.

Linked to that is the oversimplification of economic issues in China (see property bubble, changes in manufacturing distribution etc.) that takes all the nuance out of the discussion and extends to cultural and political affairs resulting in Fox News worthy takes (anything about protests in China, newly introduced good samaritan laws and the cases associated with their introduction etc).

Most English media also has an endemic problem of construing every action China and the CPC takes as being negative, no matter how inconsequential they may be or the exact reasons such actions are taken. In the end much of that stems from a willing ignorance and a complete unwillingness by the western public to read widely and in depth on the subject.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
You know, that is the bizarre thing about the US launch trade war against China, and the US launched tech war against car.

What about the cars?

IIRC, the Chinese government since ancient CCP timez, said that the car industry was a barometer on how technologically and industrially advanced a nation was. Needless to say, Deng kind of knew China was not that advanced. Hence all those joint ventures with foreign car companies to learn something.

The car today, is basically a computer on wheels. With the self-driving, that is a very sophisticated machine. It is electric too.

China is leading the way. And not peep from the Americans.
Because China is effectively advancing on every front at the same time. US doesn't have the economy size nor the industry size to contest and try to stalemate more than a couple of sectors.

That's why the Chinese government is outsourcing the tech war to private innovators, because it is not a threat to the government itself.

China is looking at the larger picture while US is seeking morale victories. Victory will only be determined by which side has more educated, and which side has a more suitable climate for the educated to implement their ideas into reality. That is the strategy Beijing is playing with.

Meanwhile America prefers to throw its full weight against lone private companies such as Huawei, which has only resulted in a stalemate at best for them. But even if they could defeat Huawei, the people that made Huawei what it is will just move into other Chinese companies. The system that created companies like it will remain.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
There is still a lot to grow in China's trades with ASEAN countries. I see that over 3 million new cars are sold in ASEAN countries a year. If Chinese companies can capture 1/3 of that, then it can make $40 billion in just auto export.

Given that ASEAN has a population roughly half the size of China, we can expect car sales to grow from 3 million to 14 million in the coming years as they reach middle-income levels.

Most of these cars will be produced inside ASEAN, so that is a lot of car plants that still have to be built
 

luminary

Senior Member
Registered Member
Because China is effectively advancing on every front at the same time. US doesn't have the economy size nor the industry size to contest and try to stalemate more than a couple of sectors.

That's why the Chinese government is outsourcing the tech war to private innovators, because it is not a threat to the government itself.

China is looking at the larger picture while US is seeking morale victories. Victory will only be determined by which side has more educated, and which side has a more suitable climate for the educated to implement their ideas into reality. That is the strategy Beijing is playing with.

Meanwhile America prefers to throw its full weight against lone private companies such as Huawei, which has only resulted in a stalemate at best for them. But even if they could defeat Huawei, the people that made Huawei what it is will just move into other Chinese companies. The system that created companies like it will remain.
I agree, the US tech war aims for short term gains, but China is wiser in playing to its system, long term strategy, and strengths (education, infrastructure, supply chain) that it has spent the past decade building. The US's recent sanctions are better than anything Beijing could've done. Globally, investors and entrepreneurs now see US = spastic, unpredictable, stifling and China = consistent policy, predictable 5-year plan, innovation/growth environment. China didn't even raise a single finger to do this.
China beckons to the world, the US thinks it's the world.
 

luosifen

Senior Member
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2022-12-29 16:17:13Ecns.cn Editor : Zhang Dongfang
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(ECNS) -- Alibaba Group has made a significant personnel adjustment of senior executives, appointing new chief technology officer (CTO) and Chief People Officer (CPO), Daniel Zhang Yong, chairman and CEO of Alibaba, announced on Thursday.
Wu Zeming, 42, has taken on the role of Alibaba’s CTO, replacing Cheng Li, and Jiang Fang will succeed Tong Wenhong as the CPO starting from April 1, 2023.
Daniel Zhang Yong is now the acting president of Alibaba Cloud Intelligence, while Jeff Zhang Jianfeng has stepped down as cloud business chief.
The data base center of Alibaba Cloud in Hong Kong Special Administrative Region was down due to refrigeration failure on Dec. 18, resulting in some important clients were affected by this malfunction, thus triggering guess about the personnel adjustment.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I love how Western countries talk like their economies are omnipotent like they don't need China or anyone. Just look at this way... I've said the West doesn't have the domestic natural resources needed to fuel their economies. At first they just took them from other countries. Then when they had to act civilized and maybe even buy the resources they need, there was no other competition so they got everything they needed on the cheap. Today they have competition from countries like China. They have to pay what they're worth in market value. In today's world the most important natural resource is people. If you don't have market access to people to sell things to, it doesn't really matter how many natural resources you have to produce those things to sell in order to make money.

You know how there's good quality crude oil and there's bad quality? The same goes with people and China probably has the best "quality" in terms that it has the biggest and still growing consumer market in the world that can buy things. All the first world economies would not be first world if left with having to work with what they only had. They need others to buy their goods and services in order to maintain their first world lifestyles. They would literally be the shithole countries of the world if left to only their own devices and they know that. The 2008 Western Financial Crisis exposed how Europe was borrowing money to maintain their first world lifestyles because their economies weren't good enough by their own means. All the countries they think they can have as an alternate market are too immature or too small and let's not leave out how these countries have to protect their own interests like China does. India is far worst than China when it comes to protectionism. Those countries they hope to use to counter China will more likely end up being more competition for them like China. China has the best natural resource that no one else has when it comes to people.

Do you think they can just easily abandon the China market? I wouldn't be too easily worried what you hear in the news about how the West is "cancelling" and decoupling from China. I wouldn't be worried about Japan spending more money on its military to counter China. Every move they make against China is going to cost them money. Money they don't have and making less and less and not more and much of it is because they're trying to cut themselves off from China. While they're bragging about cutting off computer chips from China, they don't speak of all the tech layoffs in those very industries because they see less and less profits and production from not being able to sell to China.

All the West's bravado these days are coming out of desperation not confidence. They know their days are numbers not because they're going to lose what they have. You can't lose something that didn't belong to you in the first place because you just took it from someone else.
 
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