Chinese Economics Thread

In4ser

Junior Member
Not so far off the truth. What is the foundation of western civilization? Firearms, colonialism, and the Enlightenment. Firearms, that's an obvious one. Colonialism: Christopher and Ferdinand wouldn't be sailing anywhere without a compass. The Enlightenment began with Gutenberg's printing press. Guess what that used?

You forget the stern mounted rudder (not ones with a steering oar) and gunpowder (to dominate & conquer natives). It has been said that Enlightenment philosophers like Voltaire during that period heavily influenced by Eastern philosophy, particularly in China. Especially the idea that another culture as advanced as them did not believe the absolute power and worship of divinity (aka the Church). Ironic that their ideas did not appear or influence China until years later...even now it.
 
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delft

Brigadier
Bloomberg has another article about china-based hacking

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what do you think of it? there is no doubt that there is economic benefits to china engaging in cyber espionage. But the question is, what is its true scale? and what will be the consequences in the long term?
I think it probable that several of the US 16 spy agencies are more actively engaged in cyber spying against China than Chinese hackers are active against US targets.
 

delft

Brigadier
Oh please, there is so much wrong with that statement I hardly know where to begin.
In deed it is only half of western civilization. Think of the Arab number symbols, invented in India, think of algebra, invented by an Arab living in Samarkand
 

solarz

Brigadier
In deed it is only half of western civilization. Think of the Arab number symbols, invented in India, think of algebra, invented by an Arab living in Samarkand

Honestly, I think mathematics is one of those things that many different cultures developed independently. The ancient Babylonians were said to be the first to use algebraic methods to solve mathematical problems. I have also read that the Chinese were using algebra by the 12th century at least, possibly much earlier.

The arabic numbers are certainly easier to write, but I wouldn't say they are the foundation of mathematics. Math can be done just as well in roman numerals as in Chinese characters.
 

Lacrimosa

New Member
Not so far off the truth. What is the foundation of western civilization? Firearms, colonialism, and the Enlightenment. Firearms, that's an obvious one. Colonialism: Christopher and Ferdinand wouldn't be sailing anywhere without a compass. The Enlightenment began with Gutenberg's printing press. Guess what that used?

Guess what, one item of in a complex technological-social package does not a foundation make.

It's a bit like saying since traditional Chinese civilization the Three Great Philosophies are all influenced by Buddhism to an extent, the foundation of Chinese civilization lies in India.

If you come to that I can claim with equal justice since mathematics is the foundation of engineering and since Ancient Greece developed the system of rigorous axioms and postulates, that therefore technological's foundation is Greek.

Turns out that civilization are complex affair and does not lend itself to simple generalization of who is the foundation of whom. Whodathoughtit?
 

Lacrimosa

New Member
In deed it is only half of western civilization. Think of the Arab number symbols, invented in India, think of algebra, invented by an Arab living in Samarkand

The word is Arabic, algebra itself is far, far older than that, with roots as far back as Babylon, and invented probably independently in Greece, Egypt, China, India.

Which goes to my point at how it's fundamentally silly and inaccurate to talk about who's the daddy of whom, when you are talking about giant civilizational groupings (you can trace lineages easier with smaller, better defined groups, but even that's tricky at times).
 

solarz

Brigadier
Guess what, one item of in a complex technological-social package does not a foundation make.

It's a bit like saying since traditional Chinese civilization the Three Great Philosophies are all influenced by Buddhism to an extent, the foundation of Chinese civilization lies in India.

If you come to that I can claim with equal justice since mathematics is the foundation of engineering and since Ancient Greece developed the system of rigorous axioms and postulates, that therefore technological's foundation is Greek.

Turns out that civilization are complex affair and does not lend itself to simple generalization of who is the foundation of whom. Whodathoughtit?

ROFL, you do realize that Confucianism and Taoism both predate Buddhism?

And if the Greeks were the only ones who developed the foundations of mathematics, then yes, I would agree with your postulation. However, they were not.

On the other hand, gunpowder,
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, and paper, were all invented uniquely by the Chinese civilization.

And you do understand what the word "foundation" means, don't you?
 

Lacrimosa

New Member
ROFL, you do realize that Confucianism and Taoism both predate Buddhism?

Learn to read before you go around laughing, it just removes all possible doubt. I mentioned the Three Great Philosophies 三教 for a reason and how they were all influenced by Buddhism... you may want to look up where the term first cropped up. Of course, you're welcomed to wriggle about trying to argue the point, it would be amusing to watch you try.

Oh, and if you want to split hairs in a desperate attempt to appear correct, let's get a few things straight, you mean Confucianism and Taoism predate Buddhism in China, because it is by no means clear that they actually predate Buddhism itself.


And if the Greeks were the only ones who developed the foundations of mathematics, then yes, I would agree with your postulation. However, they were not.

On the other hand, gunpowder,
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, and paper, were all invented uniquely by the Chinese civilization.

And you do understand what the word "foundation" means, don't you?

Axioms and postulates WERE uniquely Grecian and not invented by anybody else. Back to you about 'foundation'.

It's pretty rich for you to obfuscate the matter talking about mathematics as a whole and then fixating on ONE point of navigation like 'compass' in particular, and 'paper' on the whole of the Enlightenment.
 

kroko

Senior Member
A copy of manhattan being built in tianjin; too-big-to-complete projects; how many borrowing vehicles exist in china? ; chinese banks may not be disclosing data, and may be in deep trouble:

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solarz

Brigadier
Learn to read before you go around laughing, it just removes all possible doubt. I mentioned the Three Great Philosophies 三教 for a reason and how they were all influenced by Buddhism... you may want to look up where the term first cropped up. Of course, you're welcomed to wriggle about trying to argue the point, it would be amusing to watch you try.

Oh, and if you want to split hairs in a desperate attempt to appear correct, let's get a few things straight, you mean Confucianism and Taoism predate Buddhism in China, because it is by no means clear that they actually predate Buddhism itself.

Axioms and postulates WERE uniquely Grecian and not invented by anybody else. Back to you about 'foundation'.

It's pretty rich for you to obfuscate the matter talking about mathematics as a whole and then fixating on ONE point of navigation like 'compass' in particular, and 'paper' on the whole of the Enlightenment.

You claim that Taoism and Confucianism were influenced by Buddhism and thus Buddhism can be considered a foundation of Chinese civilization. This shows how poorly you understand Chinese history. Neither Taoism nor Buddhism can be considered the foundation of Chinese civilization.

It was the
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school of thought that founded the imperial dynasties, and it is this same backbone of Legalism, sugarcoated by Confucian values, that is the true foundation of the imperial dynasties.

Arguing that Buddhism and Taoism are "foundations of Chinese civilization" is akin to arguing that Christianity is the foundation of Western civilization. If you truly believe that, then power to you.

As for axioms and postulates, they are only one of the many ways of formalizing mathematics. The Chinese civilization went 2000 years without ever hearing about the Greeks, and still built some of the world's most ingenious architectures and technologies. Therefore, your argument that axioms and postulates are the foundation of technology does not hold water.

The Europeans "discovered" the Americas twice. The first time, they had axes, long boats, and huge hairy berserkers. The second time, they had caravels, guns, cannons, and guys wearing tights. You tell me what the key to their success second time around was.

Before the introduction of paper, books were so expensive that they were locked away in Monasteries. The whole point of the printing press revolution was that it drastically cheapened the cost of disseminating information. Do you think Gutenberg would have had that kind of impact if he had to use parchment for every leaflet he printed?

Of course paper is not the only factor to the Enlightenment, just as compass is not the only element to navigation, just as gunpowder is not the only element to military successes. That's why I asked if you understood the meaning of the word "foundation".
 
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