Chinese Economics Thread

petty officer1

Junior Member
Yet more non-sensical scare mongering by the usual suspects.

If China's economy grows at the rate it did before, these 'experts' 'worry' about overheating, but China's economic growth slows and it's suddenly a debt crisis.

These same experts were berating Chinese banks for not jumping onboard their derivatives and sub-prime ponze-schemes just a few years back and insisting China's financial sector was it's weakspot and the only way the Chinese economy could grown without fear of a a massive collapse was to do exactly what western banks do. Who isn't glad China didn't take their stupid advice?

These same experts have also been pointing at China's high savings rate and saying that that is a massive problem for China, and China should follow the western approach and borrow and spend money it does not have. The Greeks must be so pleased they followed the advice of these experts right now.

These experts say plenty but get precious little right.

Please ignore the rest of the article, they are just fear spreading. I personally think China's economy is on the right track
But small business lending truly is hard now in China.

When I was in China this summer for business, A lot small business owners are complaining that State Banks just wouldn't lend to small start ups at all. If they are lucky to get a loan, the interest is very high.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Please ignore the rest of the article, they are just fear spreading. I personally think China's economy is on the right track
But small business lending truly is hard now in China.

When I was in China this summer for business, A lot small business owners are complaining that State Banks just wouldn't lend to small start ups at all. If they are lucky to get a loan, the interest is very high.

Have you been to a bank in the west lately? It's pretty much the same thing with credit being squeezed for small/medium companies.

The reason that banks are reluctant to lend is because it is risky to do so, with the economic climate the way it is.

That BBC article itself mentioned that bad loans was a problem for the unofficial lenders in China, do they somehow imagine those non-performing loans would suddenly start raking in the money if it was a state bank giving them the loan instead of a relative or friend?

Fact of the matter is that underground lending is usually between family and friends in China, and these people would know the reliability of the people they are lending money to infinitely better than any credit rating agency could ever dream to.

What more, because of the family connection, the debt is often not just wiped clear if a business fails. If and when that relative who's first business failed starts making money with his second, he will more often then not pay his family creditors back. So the total loss is often exaggerated, precisely because these are not on normal commercial lending terms.

Small business not getting enough credit is not ideal and will slow economic growth, but what it will not do is lead to a debt crisis. What will lead to a debt crisis is if the Chinese state banks started lending too much to small and medium businesses as then they expose themselves to bad debts and non-performing loans.

What you are seeing is a classic case of an idiot journalist a) not knowing what the hell he is talking about, b) getting quotes from dubious sources, and c) lacking the basic common sense to do some simple reading before cobbling together a frankly ridiculous non-story.

How the BBC managed to employ such an idiot when there are so many people out looking for a job is a far more interesting question than the subject of that story.
 

petty officer1

Junior Member
Have you been to a bank in the west lately? It's pretty much the same thing with credit being squeezed for small/medium companies.

I work for a financial institution In US, I know.

The reason that banks are reluctant to lend is because it is risky to do so, with the economic climate the way it is.

I partially agree with you on this point. But remember before 2008, lending and investments in America were still high even with loans with terrible qualities. This is because risks are transferable now day, with specially designed credit instruments, loans can get off the books of banks in matter of weeks (sold or swapped with another institution of pension fund).

I can't say the same about Europe, but lending for small businesses in America are mainly the business of smaller community banks. These banks are in trouble now or not lending is due to more restrictions placed on by FDIC (restrictions on lending structures, instruments, and amounts) and the falling of their stock prices on the market due to fear. And the main revenue for small banks are coming from real-estate anyway, and that is not doing well at all.

Even their balance sheet, assets return and overall small business loan quality are sound. Simply because their stock price decreases can cause decreasing capital to be lend out.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


So risk is not the main reason why US banks are not lending. In fact many private equity firms here in US (especially in the mid-west) saw this opportunity and use their capitals to bring those banks from public back to private. inject capitals into those banks, after economic climate improve, take them public again or sale them to a another bigger bank for 2X-4X its initial book value.

Fact of the matter is that underground lending is usually between family and friends in China, and these people would know the reliability of the people they are lending money to infinitely better than any credit rating agency could ever dream to.

What more, because of the family connection, the debt is often not just wiped clear if a business fails. If and when that relative who's first business failed starts making money with his second, he will more often then not pay his family creditors back. So the total loss is often exaggerated, precisely because these are not on normal commercial lending terms.

Maybe be true couple years ago, but family and friends can't lend you 2 million yuan right away, If they do, what you do when you need 2 million more in a month?

And that is the amount of cash you need now day to do anything seriously, like opening a restaurants, a small factory, construction company, car wash, internet company... whatever.

And China's small businesses' account receivable turn over ratio are generally very low. if you are a small business, you have to wait for a while before you get paid for your goods and services, by that time; how much cash you have left to operate your business then become really questionable. So massive cash borrowings are needed on a weekly to monthly basis.

Small business not getting enough credit is not ideal and will slow economic growth, but what it will not do is lead to a debt crisis. What will lead to a debt crisis is if the Chinese state banks started lending too much to small and medium businesses as then they expose themselves to bad debts and non-performing loans.

It will not lead to a debt crisis? Most lending to small business in China are now take over by non-bank institutions (They sometime call themselves "agriculture trading Limited or XYZ City Construction to mask their true business, High yield lending). Chinese government have to now limit the amount of lending done by those institution to not lend over rate X4 of the state lending rate of 6.56%.

Private non-bank institutions can only lend at an interest rate that doesn’t exceed four times the country’s benchmark lending rate, according to the statement dated Sept. 28. Wenzhou is located about 470 kilometers (292 miles) south of Shanghai.

The city government also asked banking institutions to increase financing support to small and medium-sized businesses by setting a ceiling on interest rates for loans to those companies. Interest shouldn’t exceed 130 percent of China’s benchmark rate, the statement said. The country’s one-year lending rate is currently at 6.56 percent.

“Given the large proportion of private lending in Wenzhou, we note that defaults on private borrowing could trigger a negative chain effect throughout the lending system,” May Yan, an analyst at Barclays Capital in Hong Kong

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Not only in Wenzhou, but also in Yunnan province where I visited is setting up the same no X4 rule, but people are getting around it already.

Rates for private lending can be high as 25%+, some time through uses of multiple IDs and false business entities. Businesses can borrow up to 4-5 million yuan at a time with real interest of 70%+ from private sources!

And most of the time private lender demand HEAVY collaterals before any sort of fund transfer... some people put their home, cars, even their parent's home as collaterals. When they default, lender profit any way from the auction of their homes. The risk of lender are significantly decreased, leading to not caring what business they are lending to, just if they can post up multi-million yuan collaterals, This is dangerous, and its implications are huge.

I would rather small business gets loans from a safe source with 6.5% interest such as the China Construction bank, with a detailed credit checks and review of business plan.

This just can be as dangerous as the Collateralized Mortgage Obligation in the 2008. And like when Wells Fargo giving no-doc, high interest loans to home buyers that can't buy a house in the first place.

What you are seeing is a classic case of an idiot journalist a) not knowing what the hell he is talking about, b) getting quotes from dubious sources, and c) lacking the basic common sense to do some simple reading before cobbling together a frankly ridiculous non-story.

How the BBC managed to employ such an idiot when there are so many people out looking for a job is a far more interesting question than the subject of that story.

Like I said, please ignore most of it, I only read BBC because it don't have a comment section that is filled with bigotry and hatred toward another human being.

But when I see something that is truly become a problem, I think it deserve attention.
 
Last edited:

Rising China

Junior Member
Very Unprofessional and Very Uneducated!!!

:mad::mad::mad:

China officials like yelping dogs: US senator

The top US Senate champion of legislation to punish China for its alleged currency manipulation compared officials in Beijing on Wednesday to a "pack of dogs" yelping in anger at the bill.

"Where I come from, they say when you throw a rock at a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one you hit," Democratic Senator Sherrod Brown said in a speech on the Senate floor.
"Of course the Chinese are going to yelp because they don't like this," Brown said of the legislation, which envisions retaliatory duties on Chinese goods if the yuan is found to be unfairly "misaligned."


Lawmakers of both major US parties charge that China keeps the yuan unfairly cheap against the dollar, giving its goods as much as a 30 percent edge over comparable US products.

The senator, who represents the rust-belt heartland state of Ohio, pointed to a chorus of condemnation from Beijing against the bill, and said "they're not happy when we do this, but that doesn't mean it's not the right thing."

China's top newspaper the People's Daily -- seen as the Communist Party mouthpiece -- its foreign ministry, its central bank and the Xinhua official news agency have denounced the legislation.

"Of course in the Communist Party in the People's Republic of China, of course the ministry of commerce is going to squawk, of course the ministry of foreign affairs is going to squawk, of course the people's bank of China is gong to squawk," said Brown.
"We're saying to them you've got to follow the rules, no more breaking the rules. You can't cheat the way you've cheated," he said.

The measure was expected to clear the Senate as early as Thursday but faced an uphill fight in the House of Representatives, whose Republican leaders say they have no plan to bring it up for a vote.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
.

When China first decided to reduce rare earth export, you start seeing articles and people in the West saying they will go to someone else for the materials, that they will have invented new materials soon and it's a matter of time before rare earth metals are no longer needed, that they could even try extracting rare earth materials from scrap metals, and that China would soon regret its decision. Then, when these same people finally realize they are powerless in this situation, and that China actually wants the amount of export to reduce, these people do they only thing they could -- villify China. Except that their arguments are flawed. They treat China as some monolithic block that delibrately sells rare earth materials at dirt cheap price when in fact that's not the case; China had no such control. Chinese government simply didn't have a monopoly on rare earth materials then. By clamping down on illegal mining, closing of private mines, and nationalizing the remaining ones, China is taking the right steps to making such monopoly a reality.

Lets get this straight, I never had a issue with China upping the price or restricting the export of REE's.
Its the portraying by some of that nasty West was making China sell these products at a low price, in much the same way as blamining the WEst for China using lead in the paint LOl, As if the Chinese werent doing it before.

Despite the spin youve been trying to put into it , the fact remains it was the Chinese who chose to export the REE's into the market at a low price. No one forced them to do so. The fact is that even in the early days of the 90's export permits had to be obtained from the (SETC), and the MOFTEC . So if the Mandarins in Beijing didn't like it, they could easily have put a stop to it. After all it only took them a few days to halt shipments to Japan earlier i this year. Therefore the excuses you gave for their inability to do so is rather dubious.
The second thing I had an issue with was using REE's as an enticement to relocate to CHina. This is against WTO rules and as suggested, a thinly disguised attempt at IP theft.


.


So essentially, in 2008 China got screwed over by Rio Tinto, then China reduced rare earth exports by 21% in 2008. Gotcha. And it is now 2011, China continues to reduce rare earth exports, the West keeps keeps on complaining and has pretty much been told by China to f**k off on the matter. Sounds to me like the West got served its own medicine.

China /Chinalco didnt get screwed, and for the record it was in mid 2009 not 2008 when Chinalco failed its attempt to increase its shareholding in Rio Tinto and theLynas Corp take over bid by other Chinese interests a few months later
The reasons given were of a commercial nature, but IMO you can be pretty sure a China backlash had a part .



This would still happen regardless of whether China withheld rare earth exports to Japan, which is another damn good justification for China to continue to reduce export.
[/QUOTE]

Yes but the fantastic part for the West and myself as a shareholder was Japan outflanking China in its bid to increase its shareholding in Lynas Corp. which China wanted Really Really badly In fact it was like a person giving another, a kick in the nuts. Not only would it have been most likely to have been excruciating - but left the nuts stuck in throat thus making the guy speechless.
But I suppose thats what one could expect for being so arrogant. As I said earlier China wanted to be the spoiler in Lynas Corp IMO. Still the games not over and China could bide its time and have another attempt.

Anyway Im bored with correcting you on the same old points so c ya later thanks for letting me play;)
 
Last edited:

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: Very Unprofessional and Very Uneducated!!!

:mad::mad::mad:

China officials like yelping dogs: US senator

The top US Senate champion of legislation to punish China for its alleged currency manipulation compared officials in Beijing on Wednesday to a "pack of dogs" yelping in anger at the bill.

.........


What do you expect from a US senator ? The political system there ensures the biggest mouth gets elected not the most professional or the most educated.
 

petty officer1

Junior Member
Can you explain how collateralized loans by many small private vendors is dangerous?

1. Private lenders are hard to regulate and provide oversight by the China Accounting Standard Committee (CAS) and the China Banking Regulator Commission (CBRC). They can disguise the loans as the following transactions; not following the same regulations applied to State Banking Loan Procedures, and protocols when reviewing the loan.

  • Investments
  • Joint venture capital injections
  • Fake account payable payment for "goods purchased."
  • Down payments on a "project"
These are just a couple ways, there are many more.

2. Chinese state banks have detailed protocols before the approval of a loan, doesn't matter the size of the loan. You have to have detailed paper works; including your location of your business and goods and service, and many many many more details. This is for tax proposes and future oversight.

Most people probably think they can bribe a Chinese State Bank loan officer for loan approvals, but that is close to impossible.

when I was in China,
I was under the misconception that you can bribe a loan officer to approve your loan (I thought that is how everything works), but the truth I learned from others was doesn't matter how big your bribe is, it is simply not big enough to effectively bribe the whole chain-of-command in a State bank.

Any loan above a certain amount is first reviewed by loan officer, any other loan officers in his/her department. The loan officer's director check the loan that is above 250k yuan. Then the branch general secretary may also look over the loan if needed or it is really big.

That is a lot people to cover. And there are too many possibility for whistle blowers within the bank too, most people want to get rid of their boss anyway for a chance to climb up.

And the punishment for economic crimes in China making it simply not worth it for a small business loan.

For private lending, you have none of these problem. You can start a business that can build fake iPods, and get a "loan." just sign that line on the contract, that was prepared by multiple lawyers that essentially cover the lender's lost, any way you default. You will lose your house and your current business, and the lender will auction that off in the secondary market. Sounds familiar now?

3. There are also systematic risks.

When the State Banks lend money, it is doing it safer, cheaper, maybe not as efficient. But the success of your business is in the interest of the State. Since you will be helping with unemployment, and huge tax you will give back to the State. (China tax on value-adding). So they will not lend to you if you are doing some imprudent risky business.

Private lender do not care if your business succeed or not, or pay back the loan or not. They have their back covered by those contracts you signed.

If lending are unregulated, it will increase cheap money in the economy and cause problem years down the road for everyone.

If Chinese investment funds figure out the way to package the loans into likes of CDOs and get approval from the central government, they can resale it and its risk to the general publics, spreading the risk across the economy.

Then if they design derivatives that covers the defaults risk of the lenders, there will be more reason to make those risky high interest loan.

In short-term all these hedging of risks and massive cheap money will drive the economy up and bring the nominal interest higher (i). But the real interest rate (r) of return to lenders will be actually lower due to higher inflation pi (π)*, Since all the money are not in the economy that are locked in the bank are now flooding out in forms of easy loans.

*According to the Fisher Equation on interest rate and inflation

i = r + π
r = i − π

In the long-term the public will have to burden all those bad loans with extra tax and a lowering retirement portfolio value that are derived from these loans, not mentioning higher cost of everything due to inflation. And possible failures of those bad business that got those loans will go bankrupt and cause unemployments.
 
Top