Chinese Economics Thread

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Household consumption share of Chinese GDP has declined to like 40% of GDP; Functionally speaking the PRC cannot consume its own production of goods and services and is now trapped in devaluing its currency and seeking more exports. The amount of revenue generated per dollar of debt in China is now below 1 indicating that investment has reached its productive limits.

So how does opening the capital account, which will increase investment not exacerbate the problem?

This is literally western style supply side voodoo thinking and we've all seen how that's gone for the past 40 years in the west.
My friend I think you are mistaken on the consumption GDP figures declining

Here is the chart below
IMG_20210426_194147.jpg

I dont know about you, but to me this shows an increase not a decrease. Actually with the Dual circulation strategy, China will start seriously boosting consumption. Consumption will only increase in the future. No need to worry
 

Kaeshmiri

Junior Member
Registered Member
My friend I think you are mistaken on the consumption GDP figures declining

Here is the chart below
View attachment 71343

I dont know about you, but to me this shows an increase not a decrease. Actually with the Dual circulation strategy, China will start seriously boosting consumption. Consumption will only increase in the future. No need to worry
Why this sudden stagnation from 2016 onwards?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
My friend I think you are mistaken on the consumption GDP figures declining

Here is the chart below
View attachment 71343

I dont know about you, but to me this shows an increase not a decrease. Actually with the Dual circulation strategy, China will start seriously boosting consumption. Consumption will only increase in the future. No need to worry
I don't know about you but reading the chart it show that consumption stagnate at 40% for 3 consecutive years . That is not encouraging. So long Chinese social benefit does not increase there is no way consumption will increase. Most people will socked their saving into real estate, emergency fund, kids education etc.

Housing cost in China is just astronomical. They have to do something about it. But too much vestige interest. The city budget come from selling the land to the private company So there is no incentive for them to build public housing like in Singapore(HDB). There is no property tax in china so how cities are going to fund for public welfare?. Health care reimbursement in China is in the low 60% So no wonder they save. Child education is also high in China I know they have free public school.

Without fixing those problem I don't see how they increase consumption?
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Why this sudden stagnation from 2016 onwards?
More reforms are needed. IMO the biggest is the haiku (?) system and spiralling housing costs. After that, is the social benefits, then school costs, etc

Housing costs are the biggest though. The Gov is trying to control this now so good news here.
Haiku system has already started getting relaxed

And more social welfare is needed.
This is a gradual process and it cant happen fast enough until the people themselves start having serious disposable income ready to be spent while also having social welfare to pick them up if they lose their job, get sick, have children etc

There are a lot of stuff which need to be reformed.
 

Kaeshmiri

Junior Member
Registered Member
More reforms are needed. IMO the biggest is the haiku (?) system and spiralling housing costs. After that, is the social benefits, then school costs, etc

Housing costs are the biggest though. The Gov is trying to control this now so good news here.
Haiku system has already started getting relaxed

And more social welfare is needed.
This is a gradual process and it cant happen fast enough until the people themselves start having serious disposable income ready to be spent while also having social welfare to pick them up if they lose their job, get sick, have children etc

There are a lot of stuff which need to be reformed.
Yes but these issues were always present. What exactly happened in 2016 that caused this stagnation? Also this period coincides with Trump and the beginning of Anti-China moves in the economic sphere by US. Maybe this dampened consumer confidence which directly affected spending?
 

steel21

Junior Member
Registered Member
More reforms are needed. IMO the biggest is the haiku (?) system and spiralling housing costs. After that, is the social benefits, then school costs, etc

Housing costs are the biggest though. The Gov is trying to control this now so good news here.
Haiku system has already started getting relaxed

And more social welfare is needed.
This is a gradual process and it cant happen fast enough until the people themselves start having serious disposable income ready to be spent while also having social welfare to pick them up if they lose their job, get sick, have children etc

There are a lot of stuff which need to be reformed.
I think you meant Hukou system
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From what I understand, it is already being reformed. Residency into tier 3-4 cities are now open. I'm not sure about tier 2s. Tier 1 is still controlled, because they want economic prosperity and development to spread out to tier 2-4.
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Yes but these issues were always present. What exactly happened in 2016 that caused this stagnation? Also this period coincides with Trump and the beginning of Anti-China moves in the economic sphere by US. Maybe this dampened consumer confidence which directly affected spending?
Its not like consumption will increase its GDP share by itself. It needs reforms. At some point consumption will hit a ceiling and it wont be possible to exceed that if reforms from the Gov are not made

IMO this "stuck" figure on the recent years is this ceiling I am talking about. Unless China starts reforming it will stay around that figure (maybe increase a bit as more wealth is created but not a significant increase)

But as I said the Gov has already started taking measures. The Hukou system is getting liberalised, housing costs are starting to be controlled (still a long way to go), more social welfare will start, "consumption cities" are being created (e.g in Hainan island etc) and more policies are getting rolled out to support consumption

don't worry, from what i am seeing so far, China is really going to focus very strongly on consumption
 

weig2000

Captain
caixin article about two HSR projects in china getting canceled.

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Another caixin article from march 30 talks about china slowing the growth of the HSR.

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Whaat do people here thinks about this? are the golden days of HSR in china over?

It's one of those cycles that the central government tries to rein the financial discipline of regional and local governments. In an expansion cycle, the provincial and municipal governments have the tendency to go overboard. Happened before. In general, Chinese local governments can not go to the capital market to raise debts and get credit ratings accordingly. They tend to rely on bank loans and local government investment vehicles. The oversight responsibility falls on the central government. By the way, this time around, not just HSRs are affected. Metros are too.

HSRs and Metros are not great investment for direct financial return, which is well known. The profitability of HSR lines are uneven. Some of them are very profitable, such as the Beijing-Shanghai HSR, which was incorporated and went public. The lines in the western region are mostly loss-making on paper. All HSRs are state assets and largely owned and operated by China State Railway Group Company, Ltd., so the central government monitors the financial situation at CSRGC overall, not line by line. Overall, China does not look at HSR investments from a short-term, strictly financial returns perspective. It's key national infrastructure and the long-term return and positive externality are pretty obvious to the Chinese. They need to be affordable and sustainable though. And they're.

China's HSR 2020-2035 plan is still intact, which calls for China to build total 70,000km HSRs by then. The current length of HSR is about 40,000km. The 2035 plan envisions a 8 x 8 national grid lines. I think that should probably be the completion of main national HSR network, although there will continue to be regional and inter-city lines to be built long after that. The current network of 40,000km was completed from 2008 to 2020, and we have 30,000km to build over next 15 years. In that sense, the peak days of Chinese HSR construction can be considered over.

But the golden days of China HSR has just begun. Why?

For one, the national HSR network is starting to form, making it very convenient to travel nationally and connect at any major city via HSR. Not only that, with all the major cities are in the midst of boom of building and expanding their respective metro networks, the interconnections of HSRs and metros are greatly facilitating the travel via HSR. In effect, the national HSRs has gradually become a giant "national metro," so to speak.

For another, the add-on and related services are in the process of being continually improved and expanded, from booking, check-ins and other services such as communications, local food ordering via app etc. The HSR has also become an integral part of national express delivery network. If the first decade of China HSR boom had focused primarily on construction, then the golden age of China's HSR will be more about coverage, convenience, comfort and the expanded services, some of which are yet to be imagined and invented.

Lastly, the technology of HSR will continue to evolve. China has been investing in maglev HSR. A few low to mid speed lines (100-160 km/h) have been built and are in operation now. The first autonomous driving HSR train between Beijing and Zhangjiakou will become operational next year before the Beijing Winter Olympic. The 600km/h maglev train technology is under development.

In short, the best is yet to come. I'm waiting to travel on the magnificent Sichuan-Tibet HSR line still under construction now, to witness the wonders of the human engineering in such a challenging terrain and the nature's geographical engineering along the line.
 
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PUFF_DRAGON

New Member
Registered Member
My friend I think you are mistaken on the consumption GDP figures declining

Here is the chart below
View attachment 71343

I dont know about you, but to me this shows an increase not a decrease. Actually with the Dual circulation strategy, China will start seriously boosting consumption. Consumption will only increase in the future. No need to worry

Extend your time horizon back a bit further. Chinese Household consumption's share of GDP in 2000 AD was over 46% which is nearly 10 pct higher than its current share.

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Additionally, as per the World Bank, the household consumption share of OECD members is on average 60% of GDP.

To reach convergence with 2000 AD levels let alone OECD average levels, China would need to shift something like 2% of GDP to households every year for the rest of this 5 year plan cycle. This is not an insignificant movement and financial liberalization will make this harder, dramatically so if the American and British educated folks do it the way they learned it at Harvard or OxBridge.
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Extend your time horizon back a bit further. Household consumption's share of GDP in 2000 AD was over 46% which is nearly 10 pct higher than its current share.

Code:
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Additionally, as per the World Bank, the household consumption share of OECD members is on average 60% of GDP.
My man, consumption share of GDP is not everything. Its one thing to have a for example 60% share of a gdp of 1 trillion and another to have 40% share of a gdp for 15 trillion

Percentages themselves are not the only figure that matter. As the economy grows then it is more difficult to change and retain a 60% consumption share without very drastic reforms. And consumption is not everything, manufacturing also plays a significant part

This is a complex matter and it doesn't help when you are comparing figures between now and 2000 when China's economy was tiny. You might as well talk about different countries in this case
 
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