Chinese Economics Thread

caudaceus

Senior Member
Registered Member
China closed out the year 2020 with a bang, with the completion of China-EU The Comprehensive Agreement on Investment (CAI). There is no doubt Germany has played the leading role to get this agreement completed by the year end and, Ms. Merkel clearly has been the driving force. It's quite notable that Germany has staked out a position that is not aligned with Anglo's black-and-white world-view when it comes to China and Russia, as shown in the cases of Huawei and Nord Stream 2.

This article from Foreign Policy provides some background on Merkel's thinking behind all her China policy. The author is clearly frustrated with her policies. He held out hope for a change in Germany's China policy when Merkel will leave the office this year.

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Europe’s year-end investment deal with Beijing is a clear window into the German chancellor’s foreign-policy worldview.

BY
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| DECEMBER 31, 2020, 2:46 AM

Last year, I asked a diplomat who had worked closely with Angela Merkel for many years to sum up the German leader’s views on China. I was expecting to hear a list of concerns about the country’s authoritarian tilt under Xi Jinping, the plight of the Uighurs, and the role of the state in the Chinese economy.

Instead, the diplomat talked about Merkel’s admiration for China’s economic achievements and her appreciation of the role Beijing had played during Europe’s financial crisis a decade ago, when China bought the bonds of ailing eurozone member states and provided a market in which German firms could continue to thrive. “She has not forgotten this,” I was told.

I was reminded of this conversation in recent weeks as news emerged that Merkel, now in her 16th and final year as chancellor, was pushing other EU member states to approve a major
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.

The timing of the deal, after a year of escalating tensions between Europe and China and just weeks before the inauguration of U.S. President-elect Joe Biden,
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to say the least. It is hard not to view it as a geopolitical gift to Beijing and slap in the face to an incoming Biden administration that has vowed to repair trans-Atlantic ties and work more closely with Europe on the strategic challenges posed by China.

But to those who have followed Merkel and her approach to China over the years, the rush to seal a deal with Beijing comes as no surprise. Just a week before news from the investment talks broke, her cabinet approved a draft law that—against the tide in Europe—could open the door for Huawei to play a role in Germany’s 5G network. The law is the culmination of a two-year tussle in which Merkel doggedly resisted pressure from members of her own party, her Social Democrat coalition partners, German intelligence agencies, and key allies, including the United States, to keep Huawei out.

I have heard many theories about why a leader who has a reputation for moral integrity and who grew up under a repressive East German regime that rose from the devastation left by the Nazis continues to embrace China as a partner even as it locks up its Muslim minority in camps and builds a digital surveillance state that would shame the Stasi.

Most of them begin and end with the economic argument: that Germany and its biggest companies are simply too dependent on China for Berlin to risk alienating the Communist Party leadership in Beijing. This is certainly a factor in Merkel’s thinking, as the German diplomat’s comments make clear.

For German carmakers, China is both the present and the future. This year alone, they have invested billions of euros in
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in China. Other German companies, such as the chemicals group BASF, are also doubling down on the vast Chinese market, ignoring talk of decoupling and betting on an economy that has bounced back faster and stronger than others from COVID-19. If you forced Germany’s biggest firms to choose between China and the United States right now, many would pick China, despite concerns about the hand of the Communist Party in the economy.

But the economic argument alone is insufficient to explain Merkel’s positioning on China. There is also a geopolitical dimension that often gets lost in the discussion.

In a series of speeches over the past few years, Merkel has made clear that she sees Germany as highly vulnerable in a more hostile world of great-power competition. The conclusion she draws from this is that Berlin cannot afford to get on the wrong side of Beijing at a time when its weight, influence, and reach seem bound to increase.

At the
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in early 2019, Merkel plaintively described Germany’s prospects in this new geopolitical landscape as “poor.” A year later, in a speech at the
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in Berlin, she talked extensively about Europe’s geographic vulnerabilities. “If you look at what we Europeans have on our doorstep, it looks quite challenging,” she said. “We have Russia and right after that China. China and Russia are moving closer.”

The authoritarians to the east might not be a problem if Europe could count on the United States. But Merkel has also come to the conclusion that Washington is no longer a reliable partner. This is a theme that she touched on in a
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back in 2017, following the first in a series of disastrous NATO and G-7 summits with Donald Trump. But the past years have only reinforced this view.

Trump did lose to Biden in November. But the number that truly reverberated in Berlin, I am told, was not the 306 electoral votes that put Biden over the top but the 74.2 million votes that Trump received. Trump may soon be gone, but his followers are here to stay. It is only a matter of time before someone else takes up his nativist battle cry. Against this backdrop, the only responsible path forward, in Merkel’s view, is to hedge.

Finally, Merkel sees Germany as a mediating force in the escalating confrontation between the United States and China. Her push to reengage with Beijing on the investment agreement, climate change, and other areas this year was an attempt to show that dialogue with the Chinese leadership still makes sense. In her view, attempts to isolate and contain China can only lead to disaster.

In an increasingly black-and-white world where liberal democracies face an existential challenge from authoritarians and populists, Merkel still sees gray—and not only with China. The bargain she brokered recently with democratic backsliders Hungary and Poland to avert a clash over the EU budget is another example. George Soros accused her of
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.

Merkel’s approach to China no longer reflects the consensus in Germany or in Europe, where positions have hardened substantially over the past year. Some 71 percent of Germans now have a negative view of China, according to a Pew Research Center
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published in October. And Merkel can expect political pushback against her plans for the EU-China investment deal.

No one can predict where Germany will come down on China when she leaves the political stage next year. Much will depend on who replaces her, the makeup of the next German government, and how Beijing and the Biden administration position themselves. But Merkel’s own
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is already set in stone. The history books may not be kind.

Noah Barkin is a managing editor at the Rhodium Group and senior visiting fellow at the German Marshall Fund of the United States.
Think tankers like Barkin understand Merkel's anxiety towards U.S. internal politics yet on Twitter never empathize with her concern.

Hawley's latest drama does not help to promote American's institutional resilience that they should have.
 

bajingan

Senior Member
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Meanwhile australians are salty, bitter with a tinge of regret, they are watching their trade with China decimated meanwhile their comrade in arms that supposed to have their backs (japan, eu) signing deals with China left and right lol
Just a have read at their comments
 

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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
China enjoys trade surpluses with EU, US, and Japan to varying degrees - talks rationally, acts predictably and as agreed -> reaches deals and mutually agreeable terms that continue mutual development and economic prosperity. Literally all the decision makers and real stakeholders in those places understand China is actually a reliable and rational player they can hold sensible talks with. With each other? The top players understand an important principle - a person who lies for you can and probably will one day be lying against you.

Australia enjoys trade surplus with China - cuts off nose to spite the face. Allies abandon it economically and work with China instead. China pulls out of it a little so it feels what pain would be like if it pulled out entirely and now allows a path to political and economic reconciliation on mutually agreeable terms... expressed it through EU and talks with Macron (hint hint nudge nudge).

Australia? Publishes articles about how China's dependence on Australian coal caused a blackout so it feels better about itself lol very mature and sensible... delusional and inaccurate reporting. Hmmmm there are thousands of blackouts around China throughout every past year I'm sure just like there are blackouts in Australia from time to time... somewhere like India has more than blackouts when it comes to energy issues. Try half the population literally burning rubbish for warmth.

China's energy requirements are incomprehensible in scale to morons. Australian coal was less than 3% of all the coal China imports and produces for itself. China had too much of an excess of inefficient (and environmentally unsuitable by modern Chinese standards) coal production facilities the CCP themselves closed down in the past. LOL lib dem retardedness surely has peaked right? How do people get more stupid from this level? Are there lower levels of stupidity that Australia wants to explore and claim for itself?

Honestly China's blackouts record isn't any worse than previous years. I suppose even if China recorded one single blackout in any city or town, the Australian and Indian propagandists would have attributed that to coal tariff backfiring. I guess the dumber your enemy the easier they are to handle. That's the only upside from dealing with their constant noisy farting.
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
Merkel’s approach to China no longer reflects the consensus in Germany or in Europe, where positions have hardened substantially over the past year. Some 71 percent of Germans now have a negative view of China, according to a Pew Research Center
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
published in October. And Merkel can expect political pushback against her plans for the EU-China investment deal.


Noah Barkin is a managing editor at the Rhodium Group and senior visiting fellow at the German Marshall Fund of the United States.
Why does not that article mention German's positive views on America?

It does not fit their narrative! :p

Capture.PNG


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hashtagpls

Senior Member
Registered Member
China closed out the year 2020 with a bang, with the completion of China-EU The Comprehensive Agreement on Investment (CAI). There is no doubt Germany has played the leading role to get this agreement completed by the year end and, Ms. Merkel clearly has been the driving force. It's quite notable that Germany has staked out a position that is not aligned with Anglo's black-and-white world-view when it comes to China and Russia, as shown in the cases of Huawei and Nord Stream 2.

This article from Foreign Policy provides some background on Merkel's thinking behind all her China policy. The author is clearly frustrated with her policies. He held out hope for a change in Germany's China policy when Merkel will leave the office this year.
All China needs to win its victory conditions (economic, tech and military victories) are for the 3rd party nations like Germany and France to stay neutral. Then they too can achieve their victory conditions as well.
All the US needs to win is for the other nations to fight and die and sacrifice for the Anglos; nations like india, australia have chosen poorly in this respect and are now suffering the consequences.

One of the biggest tragedies of 2020 was also the betrayal of the UK; starting off the year as a strong neutral nation which accepted Huawei and Chinese trade and investment, they unfortunately succumbed to the US and in so doing, forfeited the leadership position of the Anglosphere to the US (previously, you had two poles in the FVEYEs with the US one one end and "Perfidious Albion" on the other). In surrendering to Trumpian US, other anglo nations like NZ wouldn't have the cover to continue being neutral vis-a-vis China, hence why you saw little piss-ant, NZ speaking up against the cartoon depicting SAS atrocities in Afghanistan.

I say this now as a resident in one of the FVEYs, that with the FVEYEs' Race War against China there can be no other alternative:
Anglosphere Delenda Est!
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
China enjoys trade surpluses with EU, US, and Japan to varying degrees - talks rationally, acts predictably and as agreed -> reaches deals and mutually agreeable terms that continue mutual development and economic prosperity. Literally all the decision makers and real stakeholders in those places understand China is actually a reliable and rational player they can hold sensible talks with. With each other? The top players understand an important principle - a person who lies for you can and probably will one day be lying against you.

Australia enjoys trade surplus with China - cuts off nose to spite the face. Allies abandon it economically and work with China instead. China pulls out of it a little so it feels what pain would be like if it pulled out entirely and now allows a path to political and economic reconciliation on mutually agreeable terms... expressed it through EU and talks with Macron (hint hint nudge nudge).

Australia? Publishes articles about how China's dependence on Australian coal caused a blackout so it feels better about itself lol very mature and sensible... delusional and inaccurate reporting. Hmmmm there are thousands of blackouts around China throughout every past year I'm sure just like there are blackouts in Australia from time to time... somewhere like India has more than blackouts when it comes to energy issues. Try half the population literally burning rubbish for warmth.

China's energy requirements are incomprehensible in scale to morons. Australian coal was less than 3% of all the coal China imports and produces for itself. China had too much of an excess of inefficient (and environmentally unsuitable by modern Chinese standards) coal production facilities the CCP themselves closed down in the past. LOL lib dem retardedness surely has peaked right? How do people get more stupid from this level? Are there lower levels of stupidity that Australia wants to explore and claim for itself?

Honestly China's blackouts record isn't any worse than previous years. I suppose even if China recorded one single blackout in any city or town, the Australian and Indian propagandists would have attributed that to coal tariff backfiring. I guess the dumber your enemy the easier they are to handle. That's the only upside from dealing with their constant noisy farting.

BTW that was to obviously say that blackouts aren't always caused by energy depletion. Australian blackouts are often caused by storms, power grid failures, equipment failure etc. But any and all Chinese blackouts can and will be attributed to Australian coal (a measly 2% of Chinese coal source). This is a great example of five eyes propaganda. The propagandists themselves are not stupid but the hateful and emotional masses that will consume this propaganda are.

There are Australian blackouts in different regions of a city literally all the time. Happens at least once a year. I'm sure China's performance in this respect is overall much worse especially if you count things nominally. It's a developing nation and has many under-developed towns and smaller cities. It's telling that the propagandists refused to report which Chinese city and suburb suffered blackouts, the reasons for them (could be technical faults), and compare it to past years. They'd probably reveal how full of shit they are if they did. How people buy into that stuff and believe ALL of what it's suggesting at face value. Shows how far the west has fallen in terms of critical thinking.
 

bajingan

Senior Member
China closed out the year 2020 with a bang, with the completion of China-EU The Comprehensive Agreement on Investment (CAI). There is no doubt Germany has played the leading role to get this agreement completed by the year end and, Ms. Merkel clearly has been the driving force. It's quite notable that Germany has staked out a position that is not aligned with Anglo's black-and-white world-view when it comes to China and Russia, as shown in the cases of Huawei and Nord Stream 2.

This article from Foreign Policy provides some background on Merkel's thinking behind all her China policy. The author is clearly frustrated with her policies. He held out hope for a change in Germany's China policy when Merkel will leave the office this year.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Europe’s year-end investment deal with Beijing is a clear window into the German chancellor’s foreign-policy worldview.

BY
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
| DECEMBER 31, 2020, 2:46 AM

Last year, I asked a diplomat who had worked closely with Angela Merkel for many years to sum up the German leader’s views on China. I was expecting to hear a list of concerns about the country’s authoritarian tilt under Xi Jinping, the plight of the Uighurs, and the role of the state in the Chinese economy.

Instead, the diplomat talked about Merkel’s admiration for China’s economic achievements and her appreciation of the role Beijing had played during Europe’s financial crisis a decade ago, when China bought the bonds of ailing eurozone member states and provided a market in which German firms could continue to thrive. “She has not forgotten this,” I was told.

I was reminded of this conversation in recent weeks as news emerged that Merkel, now in her 16th and final year as chancellor, was pushing other EU member states to approve a major
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

The timing of the deal, after a year of escalating tensions between Europe and China and just weeks before the inauguration of U.S. President-elect Joe Biden,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to say the least. It is hard not to view it as a geopolitical gift to Beijing and slap in the face to an incoming Biden administration that has vowed to repair trans-Atlantic ties and work more closely with Europe on the strategic challenges posed by China.

But to those who have followed Merkel and her approach to China over the years, the rush to seal a deal with Beijing comes as no surprise. Just a week before news from the investment talks broke, her cabinet approved a draft law that—against the tide in Europe—could open the door for Huawei to play a role in Germany’s 5G network. The law is the culmination of a two-year tussle in which Merkel doggedly resisted pressure from members of her own party, her Social Democrat coalition partners, German intelligence agencies, and key allies, including the United States, to keep Huawei out.

I have heard many theories about why a leader who has a reputation for moral integrity and who grew up under a repressive East German regime that rose from the devastation left by the Nazis continues to embrace China as a partner even as it locks up its Muslim minority in camps and builds a digital surveillance state that would shame the Stasi.

Most of them begin and end with the economic argument: that Germany and its biggest companies are simply too dependent on China for Berlin to risk alienating the Communist Party leadership in Beijing. This is certainly a factor in Merkel’s thinking, as the German diplomat’s comments make clear.

For German carmakers, China is both the present and the future. This year alone, they have invested billions of euros in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in China. Other German companies, such as the chemicals group BASF, are also doubling down on the vast Chinese market, ignoring talk of decoupling and betting on an economy that has bounced back faster and stronger than others from COVID-19. If you forced Germany’s biggest firms to choose between China and the United States right now, many would pick China, despite concerns about the hand of the Communist Party in the economy.

But the economic argument alone is insufficient to explain Merkel’s positioning on China. There is also a geopolitical dimension that often gets lost in the discussion.

In a series of speeches over the past few years, Merkel has made clear that she sees Germany as highly vulnerable in a more hostile world of great-power competition. The conclusion she draws from this is that Berlin cannot afford to get on the wrong side of Beijing at a time when its weight, influence, and reach seem bound to increase.

At the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in early 2019, Merkel plaintively described Germany’s prospects in this new geopolitical landscape as “poor.” A year later, in a speech at the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in Berlin, she talked extensively about Europe’s geographic vulnerabilities. “If you look at what we Europeans have on our doorstep, it looks quite challenging,” she said. “We have Russia and right after that China. China and Russia are moving closer.”

The authoritarians to the east might not be a problem if Europe could count on the United States. But Merkel has also come to the conclusion that Washington is no longer a reliable partner. This is a theme that she touched on in a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
back in 2017, following the first in a series of disastrous NATO and G-7 summits with Donald Trump. But the past years have only reinforced this view.

Trump did lose to Biden in November. But the number that truly reverberated in Berlin, I am told, was not the 306 electoral votes that put Biden over the top but the 74.2 million votes that Trump received. Trump may soon be gone, but his followers are here to stay. It is only a matter of time before someone else takes up his nativist battle cry. Against this backdrop, the only responsible path forward, in Merkel’s view, is to hedge.

Finally, Merkel sees Germany as a mediating force in the escalating confrontation between the United States and China. Her push to reengage with Beijing on the investment agreement, climate change, and other areas this year was an attempt to show that dialogue with the Chinese leadership still makes sense. In her view, attempts to isolate and contain China can only lead to disaster.

In an increasingly black-and-white world where liberal democracies face an existential challenge from authoritarians and populists, Merkel still sees gray—and not only with China. The bargain she brokered recently with democratic backsliders Hungary and Poland to avert a clash over the EU budget is another example. George Soros accused her of
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

Merkel’s approach to China no longer reflects the consensus in Germany or in Europe, where positions have hardened substantially over the past year. Some 71 percent of Germans now have a negative view of China, according to a Pew Research Center
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
published in October. And Merkel can expect political pushback against her plans for the EU-China investment deal.

No one can predict where Germany will come down on China when she leaves the political stage next year. Much will depend on who replaces her, the makeup of the next German government, and how Beijing and the Biden administration position themselves. But Merkel’s own
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
is already set in stone. The history books may not be kind.

Noah Barkin is a managing editor at the Rhodium Group and senior visiting fellow at the German Marshall Fund of the United States.

Hi weig2000
Do you think the pressure that the us going to inflict to germany or any us allies with significant us troop presence to get them to toe to us line will also include covert military coercion? as the us maintain huge bases throughout germany, south korea and japan
I read somewhere that snowden or maybe assange leaked information about how the us can shut down japan electrical grid in case japan dares to turn coat against the us
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Soros. The man that tried to use his capital to control China's policy movements. CCP told him to get fucked, cut off his throbbing boner and attempts to infiltrate China's controlled economy and subsequently lost many billions. Soros has had a personal vendetta against the CCP ever since.

That was a great example of a positive in China's authoritarianism working for the common good... one that works for its own interests (which may not always be benevolent for all) which aligns with all Chinese people in this case and certainly does not let western capitalists take control. It's not racist or anything look at Jack Ma and countless Chinese billionaires. Billionaires get most of their wealth but the moment they try anything funny, they often need to get power checked. Foreign billionaires? Doubly so because their motives are just that much more questionable. Another reason foreign billionaires who basically control the narratives and policy in western nations have so much hate for the CCP. They're investments into China are allowed to a certain limit and that capital is used to develop China is every way but while they get repaid handsomely, their influence are capped by the CCP.

China is one of the world's last remaining nations that have kept out the snakes. It's certainly the nation with the most "resources" that the modern day imperialists want to loot and plunder. North Korea, Iran are well defended. Smaller nations are already there whenever. Russia is yet another China level example and look at the amount of propaganda directed against it and its government. They've been doing it to Latin American nations and currently working on Venezuela. Once the power vacuum gets there, the plundering begins. North Africa, Arab nations, Middle East all done.
Hi ougoah,

Soros, the name itself represent evil, Hungary the country were he was born declared him a persona non grata, He is part of the globalist/ Davos crowd and try to regain relevance under the new Biden administration. As we discussed before the CCP welcomes the billionaires/corporatist to it's rank but will never surrender its sovereign right to govern. That's what ails the western democracy it blurred the line of corporate interest and national interest as you elected and allow the corporatist class to rule over you. That's why China political system had been attack vigorously by the west and its MSM, people are looking for an alternative for decades of stagnant growth both economic and socially, The Chinese socialist system may look primitive from the outside and may hark back from their previous experience, but being simple is what make it work.

I think a class war is needed to cleanse the political system in the west, that's what Trump had done. Releasing a Cultured war. What I'm afraid of is that a revolutionary changes is usually a messy affair, the ruling elites will not surrender their privileged without a fight. The choices are clear, Do a FDR or do a Hitler Nazis.
 

weig2000

Captain
Hi weig2000
Do you think the pressure that the us going to inflict to germany or any us allies with significant us troop presence to get them to toe to us line will also include covert military coercion? as the us maintain huge bases throughout germany, south korea and japan
I read somewhere that snowden or maybe assange leaked information about how the us can shut down japan electrical grid in case japan dares to turn coat against the us

Trump had already threatened and decided to withdraw one-third of the US military from Germany; the US has been putting pressure on Germany to increase the defense spending to at least 2% of GDP, Germany did increase the spending but refused to go all the way to 2% citing fiscal constraints. The US has threatened to sanction any German and European companies participating in the Nord Stream 2 project, yet Germany stands firm. Meanwhile, Macron has insisted all along that Europe needs autonomy and "NATO is brain dead." He even got into a verbal fight with German defense minister with regards to how far Europe should be independent from the US to pursue autonomy.

So if the Germany and France can stick together, then Europe has a chance to be relatively more independent from the US, particularly in trade and economy. A divided Europe would be a weaker one. A complete divorce is unlikely; the security relationship will still hold them together in the foreseeable future.

In Asia, Japan is all-in with the US security-wise, but has carved out some wiggle room and autonomy in the trade and investment arena. The US is Ok with this and is not terribly worried about Japan's loyalty, because it knows Japan has no other choice but sticks with the US. Japan is a neutered country, and has lost the capacity and nerve to function as a real man/country. It's also a society that is old and getting even older in a hurry. It'll be intersting to watch how it copes with all these challenges. South Korea is much more ambivalent, and will try its hardest to strike a balance between the US and China.
 
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