Chinese Economics Thread

NiuBiDaRen

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is why China's economic success dispite the initial drawbacks is much more remarkable. In 1949, India had so much more in the way of national economic endowment than China. Yet 70 years later. India is 4 times smaller.

And it'll get worse particularly they think their "population dividends" is going to give them an edge. All it'll end up doing is a big millstone around their neck.
Population curse like the resource curse. You see the Arabs have their oil reserves, and they are cursed economically. Westerners got rich from all their colonies and natural resources. East Asians have terrible natural resources, Japan and Korea are barren when it comes to natural resources, and China isn't much better. But heck, it may have inspired them to work hard, and succeed as a result. Since you can only rely on brainpower if you don't have mineral hinterland.
 

NiuBiDaRen

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well Western media was talking about ghost cities in China 3 years ago... guess what? They're filled up now! That's why Western media stopped attacking China for its ghost cities, now trying to find new targets such as inner Mongolia province.

I couldn't be bothered to check that CNN article from 2017, but I bet there's some snarky comment from CNN about China's 'infrastructure to nowhere' :rolleyes:
 

kentchang

Junior Member
Registered Member
China lags behind Taiwan for 30 years is one of the most funniest things I have heard for sometime. When many Taiwanese fled Taiwan to find jobs in China and the US due to the extreme low entry wage for college students, it shows that Taiwan wealth distribution is a disaster.

One of the biggest mistakes that Hong Kong government made is to allow those green peace and environmentalists to derail Hong Kong's plans for reclamation and rezoning of parks and farmland. Due to these activists, Hong Kongers now living space is no better than a jail cell and breed poverty and social problem and resentment for youngsters.
You don't understand what is meant by '30 years'. Here I am talking about social changes. Chinese cities can have tall buildings and modern metros but still plenty of petty and unruly people. You cannot expect these people to change. Not if they experienced the Cultural Revolution. Not if they were Red Guards. Not after age of 10. 30 years define a full generation. My Chinese students/interns/colleagues born after 1990 are great. Not so for the older ones. They belong to a different era. They had to struggle and be more self-protective and it shows in their more self-centered behaviors. I don't suggest that majority of them don't try to adapt and be more civil-minded because they know time has changed and/or they don't want to get locked by for 5 days. In the end, you can't teach new tricks to old dogs. In another 30 years the teenagers then will probably sneer at us for not recycle a tiny piece of paper or use a plastic bag and they would be right. Even a few years ago when I visited Taipei last, I had to use the chopsticks provided by the restaurant when everyone else brought their own.

These 30 years cannot be accelerated with money or even hard work but as I wrote, Mother Nature ensures this problem will automagically disappear in 30 years time. You can fit anyone in a Brioni suit but don't expect them to suddenly start ordering dry martinis shaken but not stirred. It is really not a 'fixable problem' rather a 'process'.

People in Taiwan complain a lot. People in the U.S. complain all the time. They 'flee' everywhere for better opportunities too. Are they poor? No. They simply have choices, freedom to do so, and most importantly of all, they know they are empowered to do so. Go check CIA World Book, Taiwan's quality of live has been right in between Germany and Iceland for years now. Taiwan is a place where one in four families has a live-in domestic worker and they never have to worry one second about their health for their entire lives. Talk (a.k.a complaints) is cheap, look at the numbers. A lot of people complain not because their current situation is bad but because they have high expectations for themselves and that is a very good silver lining. Per capita, the number of people in the Arts field in Taiwan is 5X that of China, most of these artists and writers will never accumulate much material wealth but they are doing what they want to do and they add to the richness of a society far more than a coal mine owner with a gold-plated toilet.

You may not agree with the current political situation in Taiwan but if you study how smoothly and how peacefully Taiwan has transitioned in the last 30 years, you'll wish the same can happen in China someday (not in 30 years). Forget about China, contrast Taiwan's experience with that of South Korea where hundred got killed during the transition and EVERY President except one went to prison or died of unnatural causes (suicide or a bullet) in the last 70 years. You may think Taiwan politics is messy and it is but look behind it, you'll see the beauty of it. A two-party democratic society naturally bickers to the point that it seems nothing gets done and that is the whole point of the system! When you have reached that level of prosperity (like the U.S., Iceland, and Taiwan), you want a system that maintains the status quo. China's current system is working well and let's hope it will continue to do so and if a transition does happen for the better, let's hope it will be more like Taiwan's model, not South Korea's (or Libya's).
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Lee Kuan Yew further said

...

When doing a project [the British] would put the Chinese in the middle and put the Indians at the side, and the Indians were expected to keep the pace of the Chinese. And there was a hell of a problem, because one Chinese would carry one pole with two wicker baskets of earth, whereas two Indians would carry one pole with one wicker basket between them. So it’s one quarter. Now that’s culture. Maybe it has to do with genetic characteristics, I’m not sure.
...
Malaria is endemic in large swathes of India. It is known that populations who live in areas which are rife with malaria quite often are anemic as a result. Add to that a large population which is quite often malnourished and/or vegetarian and it is hardly surprising they have stunted growth or poor physical abilities. Now, India is large enough significant amounts of population should not have those problems. But I wouldn't be surprised if those who were like that ended up in other occupations. Maybe in the military.
 

kentchang

Junior Member
Registered Member
You don't understand what is meant by '30 years'. Here I am talking about social changes. Chinese cities can have tall buildings and modern metros but still plenty of petty and unruly people. You cannot expect these people to change. Not if they experienced the Cultural Revolution. Not if they were Red Guards. Not after age of 10. 30 years define a full generation. My Chinese students/interns/colleagues born after 1990 are great. Not so for the older ones. They belong to a different era. They had to struggle and be more self-protective and it shows in their more self-centered behaviors. I don't suggest that majority of them don't try to adapt and be more civil-minded because they know time has changed and/or they don't want to get locked by for 5 days. In the end, you can't teach new tricks to old dogs. In another 30 years the teenagers then will probably sneer at us for not recycle a tiny piece of paper or use a plastic bag and they would be right. Even a few years ago when I visited Taipei last, I had to use the chopsticks provided by the restaurant when everyone else brought their own.

These 30 years cannot be accelerated with money or even hard work but as I wrote, Mother Nature ensures this problem will automagically disappear in 30 years time. You can fit anyone in a Brioni suit but don't expect them to suddenly start ordering dry martinis shaken but not stirred. It is really not a 'fixable problem' rather a 'process'.

People in Taiwan complain a lot. People in the U.S. complain all the time. They 'flee' everywhere for better opportunities too. Are they poor? No. They simply have choices, freedom to do so, and most importantly of all, they know they are empowered to do so. Go check CIA World Book, Taiwan's quality of live has been right in between Germany and Iceland for years now. Taiwan is a place where one in four families has a live-in domestic worker and they never have to worry one second about their health for their entire lives. Talk (a.k.a complaints) is cheap, look at the numbers. A lot of people complain not because their current situation is bad but because they have high expectations for themselves and that is a very good silver lining. Per capita, the number of people in the Arts field in Taiwan is 5X that of China, most of these artists and writers will never accumulate much material wealth but they are doing what they want to do and they add to the richness of a society far more than a coal mine owner with a gold-plated toilet.

You may not agree with the current political situation in Taiwan but if you study how smoothly and how peacefully Taiwan has transitioned in the last 30 years, you'll wish the same can happen in China someday (not in 30 years). Forget about China, contrast Taiwan's experience with that of South Korea where hundred got killed during the transition and EVERY President except one went to prison or died of unnatural causes (suicide or a bullet) in the last 70 years. You may think Taiwan politics is messy and it is but look behind it, you'll see the beauty of it. A two-party democratic society naturally bickers to the point that it seems nothing gets done and that is the whole point of the system! When you have reached that level of prosperity (like the U.S., Iceland, and Taiwan), you want a system that maintains the status quo. China's current system is working well and let's hope it will continue to do so and if a transition does happen for the better, let's hope it will be more like Taiwan's model, not South Korea's (or Libya's).

I'll give two more examples what '30 years' can mean. In the 1960's, there was a Japanese company famous for its cheap and not-so-well-made transistor radios. In the 1970's and 1980's, Taiwan products were known for the same. Now it is China's turn. People don't make fun of 'Made in Taiwan' products any more and Sony is a world-class premium brand. It takes a very long time (if ever) for people to change their perceptions. Whatever China does today or next year, don't expect others to be swayed. No amount of statistics will do that. It is just our human nature/long-term memory. The '30 years' I mentioned cannot be shortened just like most Americans still perceive the U.S. as we are in the 1950's.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
I still remember in the early 1990s Taiwan made a huge push with their "It's Very Well Made in Taiwan" campaign.
It took huge efforts to shake down idea that they only made cheap low quality products.

I think a lot of people today recognize some Chinese brands as providing affordable or quality products. But the quality is still all over the place when you take into consideration different brands.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
I still remember in the early 1990s Taiwan made a huge push with their "It's Very Well Made in Taiwan" campaign.
It took huge efforts to shake down idea that they only made cheap low quality products.

I think a lot of people today recognize some Chinese brands as providing affordable or quality products. But the quality is still all over the place when you take into consideration different brands.

It's fine though, that's true free market. Let people choose what's good and the shitty brands will die out eventually.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well Western media was talking about ghost cities in China 3 years ago... guess what? They're filled up now! That's why Western media stopped attacking China for its ghost cities, now trying to find new targets such as inner Mongolia province.

I couldn't be bothered to check that CNN article from 2017, but I bet there's some snarky comment from CNN about China's 'infrastructure to nowhere' :rolleyes:

Exactly. But that's how the propaganda works. And it works very well. As recently as here within the last month's on this forum. One of the members here wrote (I can't remember who). "Infrastructure to nowhere". He could only got that from reading his western MSM.
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
Exactly. But that's how the propaganda works. And it works very well. As recently as here within the last month's on this forum. One of the members here wrote (I can't remember who). "Infrastructure to nowhere". He could only got that from reading his western MSM.
Exactly! Double that thought.

The propaganda becomes normalized and the patronizing naturally becomes second nature too.

When the Chinese reject that, then the resentment starts.

Fire back, that is the best strategy.

Change the narrative!

:p
 
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