Chinese Economics Thread

ougoah

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Registered Member
You can't be serious. China spent the best part of the past 60 years trying to reduce its population so as not to burdened it with hunger and poverty. And now you're advocating a policy guaranteed to burden China with poverty and hunger.

There is an optimum level of population. I think I read somewhere a long while ago. That China's is somewhere between 600 billion to 800 billion (don't quote me on it).

China still have a long way to go before it needs to encourage any more babies. This is why I think the policy to relax the one-child policy is a right one. But let's leave it at that for now, and maybe encourage a third child in twenty years time.
You have a typo in your post where you wrote billion instead of million.

A few years ago was an okay time to lift the one child policy and reform it to two children (exceptions are rife). I think the overall aim is to get below a billion people and convert China eventually into a nation that is roughly the same population around double that of the European Union or rather the EU combined with the US. China's landmass is roughly the same as the US and with similar abundance of habitable land and natural resources that help facilitate that. It's a comfortable medium without going too sparse or 20th century industrialisation thinking.

Hard to determine a set of exact science out of a good population size but the worrying thing with China is the age of its population. It will be suddenly going from ridiculously overpopulated to something like 0.8 billion. The technology of the times will probably determine whether it is a good thing and how to better make productive use of the population but going from trends and what we suspect are gov initiatives, China wants to become a self-sufficient consumer economy and move up the value chain. Huge populations will become more of a liability than an asset as everything moves towards becoming more automated. The importance would be to have a highly educated population which China's moving towards. If the entirety of China could eventually become as educated (that includes everyone) as Japan or Singapore or South Korea or any Scandinavian nation, then imagine how productive and efficient it could be if the organisation and motivations were working for it. It would be like five entire Japans with 20 times the land, more resources, and a better position to exploit where it is situated - close to the Eurasian heartland.
 

NiuBiDaRen

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Registered Member
China is already the largest economy in the world.

PPP GDP is more relevant for China for estimating military/space/R&D capacity, since China is nearly self-sufficient in terms of technical and manufacturing capability. Most of the costs for equipment and personnel are local in nature.

Even if you buy a loaf of bread in China, the cost of the wheat and the crude that makes the gasoline for the transportation is pretty much the only thing that China doesn't produce. It's cost is minimal relative to the total value of all parts domestically produced. That is what China is importing.

Natural resources, food, and a dwindling amount of high tech items (planes, engines, semiconductors) are the few things that you might want to use nominal GDP to calculate for China. While on the other hand nations like India, who don't source most of the items, parts, techniques, etc. from the domestic market, but rather internationally, their nominal GDP is far closer to the truth.

According to consensus, the IMF never actually gets in this war of 'who is the biggest economy' and usually just releases their nominal and PPP figures/estimates and lets everyone decide for themselves, but that's actually not exactly true. In one of the supplemental appendices, the IMF implies the true relative measure of an economy is: 40% of nominal GDP + 60% of PPP GDP (might be 60% nominal + 40% PPP I honestly can't remember).

I would say this isn't entirely accurate and is a simple one size fits all measure, and China's should lean more towards PPP relative to whatever measure the IMF uses for the baseline country, but even if you use the baseline country calculation then China and the US are already close to the same economic size.

Does anyone find this surprising?

It isn't when you consider some facts about the relative differences in other metrics (which are highly correlated with economic size):

As of end-2019, total assets for all SOEs in China was $78 trillion, more than the combined non-financial assets of all US households, nonprofits, small businesses, corporate businesses, financial businesses, local governments, state governments, and the US federal government, combined. This is despite the fact that SOEs only contribute 40% of all Chinese income (a different metric but still impressive). (
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China has four of the top ten most competitive financial centers (Shanghai, Hong Kong, Beijing, and Shenzhen), more than any other country (USA has 2). This is according to the GFCI which is widely considered the top source by international organizations and institutions for ranking financial centers. (
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According to the only bank that compiles global national wealth data, China is either the richest country in the world or is about to be within the next year or two. (
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The 2020 numbers listed by Credit Suisse above show the net national household worth of China is $81.4 trillion compared to $114.9 trillion in the USA. This does not account for government net wealth, which was $17.4 trillion for China as of end-2016 and over -$21.5 trillion for the USA as of beginning-2019 (yes negative $21.5 trillion!), with the discrepancy likely being even worse as of 2020. (
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From the same source but for last years issue, China already surpassed the United States in the total number of people within the top 10% of global wealth. China had 100 million wealthy people (each owning a net wealth of over USD 110,000) compared to the US with 99 million. (
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China also has the world's largest total banking sector assets of $45.838 trillion (309.41 trillion CNY) with $42.063 trillion in total deposits and other liabilities (
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China has more Fortune 500 companies than anyone else in the world, in nominal value not PPP. China has over 25% of the worlds largest companies. (
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While Forbes ranks China as having the 2nd largest number of billionaires, Hurun Global Rich List, which is actually located in China and may know more about local business operations lists 799 billionaires for China (I'm sure excluding many relatives of certain officials) to the USA's 626 billionaires. (
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China manufactures $3.896 trillion of goods every year compared to $2.317 trillion for the USA, or about 68% more. (
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Hell, even when the US shows off how much it buys from everyone else, China buys just about as much as the US does. While US imports were $2.568 trillion in 2019, China's was $2.069 trillion, or only about 25% more... (
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China has more 5G users than the rest of Humanity combined. In fact, it's not even close. By the end of July 2020, China's 5G users had already surpassed 88 million, accounting for over 80% of users worldwide -- far ahead of the previously projected 70% share for the whole of 2020. (
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Our economic wunderkind Gordon Chang says that electricity consumption is actually the best indicator of Chinese growth. China consumes 6.31 trillion kilowatt-hours per year as of 2017, while the US consumes 3.91 trillion kW·h/yr as of 2015. Does someone want to tell him that China consumes 63% more electricity than the United States every year? (
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I can go all day with these stats. China produces 12x as much agriculture value (adjusted for PPP), China produces significantly more food (contrary to popular belief), China produces over 2x as many cars every single year, China produces $7 trillion MORE industry than the US every single year (adjusted for PPP), and on and on and on. China outproduces and out-consumes the United States on 90%+ metrics that exist. See for yourself:
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Also funny to note, many of these are outdated enough that a decent proportion that are listed as another country leading actually belong to China if you look a little bit deeper.

Let's not forget with most if not all of these numbers the differences will continue to grow in China's favor with each passing year, and that some of these numbers are already slightly outdated so the actual reality is even more in China's favor than indicated. So how can a country which is only supposedly 70% of US GDP be this much bigger in every other metric? It doesn't make any sense.
Goddamn, if I'm American I'll be wetting my pants at the Chinese economic locomotive. Why is it such a runaway freight train? Why hasn't it already collapsed by now by chief expert Gordon Chang? :eek:

1608991974757.png
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
You have a typo in your post where you wrote billion instead of million.

A few years ago was an okay time to lift the one child policy and reform it to two children (exceptions are rife). I think the overall aim is to get below a billion people and convert China eventually into a nation that is roughly the same population around double that of the European Union or rather the EU combined with the US. China's landmass is roughly the same as the US and with similar abundance of habitable land and natural resources that help facilitate that. It's a comfortable medium without going too sparse or 20th century industrialisation thinking.

Hard to determine a set of exact science out of a good population size but the worrying thing with China is the age of its population. It will be suddenly going from ridiculously overpopulated to something like 0.8 billion. The technology of the times will probably determine whether it is a good thing and how to better make productive use of the population but going from trends and what we suspect are gov initiatives, China wants to become a self-sufficient consumer economy and move up the value chain. Huge populations will become more of a liability than an asset as everything moves towards becoming more automated. The importance would be to have a highly educated population which China's moving towards. If the entirety of China could eventually become as educated (that includes everyone) as Japan or Singapore or South Korea or any Scandinavian nation, then imagine how productive and efficient it could be if the organisation and motivations were working for it. It would be like five entire Japans with 20 times the land, more resources, and a better position to exploit where it is situated - close to the Eurasian heartland.

Yes. Sorry for the typo. Too much spirit at Xmas time, and children making all the noises playing monopoly. Lol

Agreed the quality got to be lifted. Which is what China is doing. But in the context I was answering previous poster's proposal of making population increases again. As if we haven't learned the lessons of the past. And present from places like Africa and dare I say it....... India... cough.
 

NiuBiDaRen

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes. Sorry for the typo. Too much spirit at Xmas time, and children making all the noises playing monopoly. Lol

Agreed the quality got to be lifted. Which is what China is doing. But in the context I was answering previous poster's proposal of making population increases again. As if we haven't learned the lessons of the past. And present from places like Africa and dare I say it....... India... cough.
Honestly I was reading the news that China is going to overtake USA in 2028, and India is gonna become no 3 in 2030. I hate to be a wet blanket, but I think I realize every time someone makes a prediction about India reaching a target, it's not going to reach the target. So yeah. It's depressing. Lol

Prediction 1: India hit 5 trillion in 2025. Not looking good at all.
Prediction 2: India hit 10 trillion in 2030. That's just... rough.
Prediction 3: India overtake Japan in 2028. It's been jinxed.

Let's watch over the next 10 years. Which of the 3 India predictions are jinxed. Everytime China receives a prediction, it is anti-jinx.

Let's not even talk about the bhakt prediction of India becoming a superpower country in the year 2020, which was simply impossible and is already missed. It's December 26 2020. Goddamn man, what the f is happening in India? Even I cannot stand all the retardation going on in India even though I'm not Indian at all. I mean I just feel hopeless for them even though I'm not connected to India at all. I mean, they're supposed to be a great ass nation right?
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Honestly I was reading the news that China is going to overtake USA in 2028, and India is gonna become no 3 in 2030. I hate to be a wet blanket, but I think I realize every time someone makes a prediction about India reaching a target, it's not going to reach the target. So yeah. It's depressing. Lol

Prediction 1: India hit 5 trillion in 2025. Not looking good at all.
Prediction 2: India hit 10 trillion in 2030. That's just... rough.
Prediction 3: India overtake Japan in 2028. It's been jinxed.

Let's watch over the next 10 years. Which of the 3 India predictions are jinxed. Everytime China receives a prediction, it is anti-jinx.

Let's not even talk about the bhakt prediction of India becoming a superpower country in the year 2020, which was simply impossible and is already missed. It's December 26 2020. Goddamn man, what the f is happening in India? Even I cannot stand all the retardation going on in India even though I'm not Indian at all. I mean I just feel hopeless for them even though I'm not connected to India at all. I mean, they're supposed to be a great ass nation right?

It’s why they revoked 370 and started shit with China, just to find someone to blame and distract their populace.

The amount of vitriol they project at us makes me feel no pity for their economic situation.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
@horse I wouldn't put much faith into the rise of the global south anytime soon. It is just plain geography. Most of the south does not have the land area to grow the most efficient crops and livestock. There are some people in the north trying to make more resistant crops that will grow there but the south itself mostly lacks the skills or resources to invest on this properly. Of course there are exceptions to this but it is mostly true.
 

Kaeshmiri

Junior Member
Registered Member
Honestly I was reading the news that China is going to overtake USA in 2028, and India is gonna become no 3 in 2030. I hate to be a wet blanket, but I think I realize every time someone makes a prediction about India reaching a target, it's not going to reach the target. So yeah. It's depressing. Lol

Prediction 1: India hit 5 trillion in 2025. Not looking good at all.
Prediction 2: India hit 10 trillion in 2030. That's just... rough.
Prediction 3: India overtake Japan in 2028. It's been jinxed.

Let's watch over the next 10 years. Which of the 3 India predictions are jinxed. Everytime China receives a prediction, it is anti-jinx.

Let's not even talk about the bhakt prediction of India becoming a superpower country in the year 2020, which was simply impossible and is already missed. It's December 26 2020. Goddamn man, what the f is happening in India? Even I cannot stand all the retardation going on in India even though I'm not Indian at all. I mean I just feel hopeless for them even though I'm not connected to India at all. I mean, they're supposed to be a great ass nation right?
This is true. No report ever mentions the details. India has a weak Manufacturing sector, their service sector is barely innovative & doesn't produce enough jobs, their majority of workforce is still in agriculture sector . With AI (which China is already a leader in) bound to make millions jobless in the coming decade , how exactly will Indians increase their income.? What exactly will propel India to become the 3rd largest economy (nominal) ?
 

NiuBiDaRen

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is true. No report ever mentions the details. India has a weak Manufacturing sector, their service sector is barely innovative & doesn't produce enough jobs, their majority of workforce is still in agriculture sector . With AI (which China is already a leader in) bound to make millions jobless in the coming decade , how exactly will Indians increase their income.? What exactly will propel India to become the 3rd largest economy (nominal) ?
Indians and Western media all have PhDs in India Greatness Theory
 

NiuBiDaRen

Brigadier
Registered Member
What exactly will propel India to become the 3rd largest economy (nominal) ?
Uhh a nation of call centers? Indians can be the punching bags for Karens worldwide

Also on my list, exporting:
1. Cow dung semiconductors
2. Cow dung lamps
3. Cow dung run automobiles (green energy)
4. Cow dung furniture (think IKEA cheap cow dung sofas)
5. Cow dung LCD panels
6. Cow dung table tennis bats

I mean Indians bhakts have claimed cow dung from their holy cows have the ability to power everything in modern technology... :rolleyes: India Stronk!
 
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