Chinese Economics Thread

[manqiangrexue]

In the Information Age, soft power matters.

I mention how China needs to improve its ability to shape the narrative and grow its soft power, and you guys tell me how the only thing that matters is hard power.

Because the only thing that matters is hard power. I think your infatuation with soft power lies in your confusion as to what actually constitutes soft and hard power. For example, Country A wants to do something but Country B doesn't want Country A to do it. Country B tells Country A it urges Country A to reconsider. Country A says, respectfully, we've made our choice. Country B then says, in that case, we will sanction these sectors of your economy, withdraw from these commitments to you, and exit these treaties with you. This may be said publicly or privately. Then Country A, which doesn't want to tell the world it was bullied, says, "OK, after reviewing the details, we agree with Country B and will hold off on doing such and such." This is NOT soft power. This is cold bone-crushing hard power. This is how things get done. I don't know of any situation where a country literally just begged another country to give up on its interests without hard power backing coming into play.

 

[Petrolicious88]

That ain't soft power, its called information warfare, propaganda etc etc

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Propaganda, soft power, ability to influence people to do what you want without resorting to force or threats..........whatever you want to call it.

It matters.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Propaganda, soft power, ability to influence people to do what you want........whatever you want to call it.

It matters.

Whom did you influence? If China was losing control of its own citizens to Western propaganda, then I'd say it is a serious issue. But if every country basically controls what their citizens think and most of the Western countries think alike and distrust China from basically the beginning of the modern world, it's strange to blame China for not having superior influence on them. Why not say the West has poor soft power because they fail to sway Chinese minds?

 

[gadgetcool5]

Show me an instance in history in which a rising power soft-powered itself past an incumbent waning power?

@quantumlight
If the only thing that mattered was hard power, the Soviet Union would never have collapsed. What hard power forced the Soviets with their 10,000 warheads to retreat their border of control from Berlin all the way to the Belarus-Russian border? They had plenty of hard power, but the people stopped believing in communism. Therefore it collapsed. Solely due to soft power. Nobody forced the Soviets to collapse, they could have gone on indefinitely if they really wanted to. The Cold War was decided due to soft power.

Also, the British Empire allowed the US to overtake it as the world #1 power, solely due to soft power. Normally there should be a war between the British Empire to maintain its top level position against the rising US, but it never happened because the US had soft power in the UK in the form of cultural and political connections to forestall this. In the end, the British accepted the transition peacefully.

I will go further. In a world of nuclear weapons, soft power is the ONLY form of power that will allow a rising power to overtake an established power. Hard power is never going to do it due to nuclear weapons. The cost of war is too high. The ONLY thing that matters is soft power.

 

[quantumlight]

@quantumlight
If the only thing that mattered was hard power, the Soviet Union would never have collapsed. What hard power forced the Soviets with their 10,000 warheads to retreat their border of control from Berlin all the way to the Belarus-Russian border? They had plenty of hard power, but the people stopped believing in communism. Therefore it collapsed. Solely due to soft power. Nobody forced the Soviets to collapse, they could have gone on indefinitely if they really wanted to. The Cold War was decided due to soft power.

Also, the British Empire allowed the US to overtake it as the world #1 power, solely due to soft power. Normally there should be a war between the British Empire to maintain its top level position against the rising US, but it never happened because the US had soft power in the UK in the form of cultural and political connections to forestall this. In the end, the British accepted the transition peacefully.

Soft power works guys, it did a number on gadgetcool5

The ONLY thing that matters is soft power.

Okay, why is India not Supapowa #1 yet?

Let me softpower my way to a perfect 10 with zero dollars in the bank account...

 

[manqiangrexue]

@quantumlight
If the only thing that mattered was hard power, the Soviet Union would never have collapsed. What hard power forced the Soviets with their 10,000 warheads to retreat their border of control from Berlin all the way to the Belarus-Russian border? They had plenty of hard power, but the people stopped believing in communism. Therefore it collapsed. Solely due to soft power. Nobody forced the Soviets to collapse, they could have gone on indefinitely if they really wanted to. The Cold War was decided due to soft power.

Also, the British Empire allowed the US to overtake it as the world #1 power, solely due to soft power. Normally there should be a war between the British Empire to maintain its top level position against the rising US, but it never happened because the US had soft power in the UK in the form of cultural and political connections to forestall this. In the end, the British accepted the transition peacefully.

Incorrect as usual on both accounts. Economics is also hard power. It is the engine and fuel for your hard power machine. If your economy is in shambles, you will collapse. War machines aren't the only hard power.

The UK never allowed anything, including American independence. The UK fought to keep the US a colony and lost. And then realized they have no way to keep the US from overtaking them. Going to war is futile. They could do nothing except watch themselves be overtaken. They'd swallow the US whole today if they could.

You've erroneously confined hard power to going to war. Forcing someone to back down by sanctions or tech embargo is hard power.

 

[Petrolicious88]

Whom did you influence? If China was losing control of its own citizens to Western propaganda, then I'd say it is a serious issue. But if every country basically controls what their citizens think and most of the Western countries think alike and distrust China from basically the beginning of the modern world, it's strange to blame China for not having superior influence on them. Why not say the West has poor soft power because they fail to sway Chinese minds?

Plenty of Chinese people worship the US and the West. No hard power forced them to. Yet they want to watch Hollywood movies, buy western products, look up to western culture, etc etc...

Im not talking about China’s ability to control its citizens.

 

[Petrolicious88]

Soft power works guys, it did a number on gadgetcool5

The ONLY thing that matters is soft power.

Okay, why is India not Supapowa #1 yet?

Let me softpower my way to a perfect 10 with zero dollars in the bank account...

I don’t think anyone here said “The only thing that matters is soft power”. Loll

 

[quantumlight]

Plenty of Chinese people worship the US and the West. No hard power forced them to. Yet they want to watch Hollywood movies, buy western products, look up to western culture, etc etc...

Im not talking about China’s ability to control its citizens.

That is predicated upon HARD POWER... economic success... technological superiority.... that is why they worshipped the West... not because of democracy...

You talk as if soft power is some magical thing... but everything you mentioned all roots back to hard power... soft power is a substrate that exists on top of and is derived from hard power... it can be magnified and amplified but only to an extent... it does NOT exists in a vacuum and means nothing without hard power to back it up....

Seems you are going in circles...

 

[manqiangrexue]

Plenty of Chinese people worship the US and the West. No hard power forced them to. Yet they want to watch Hollywood movies, buy western products, look up to western culture, etc etc...

Im not talking about China’s ability to control its citizens.

No, it is hard power. America's economy, military, and technology are at the top of the world. That is the root of all worship. They believe that superior technology makes superior products in the West. Hollywood only matters because it is connected to the country and thus culture that is being worshipped. Otherwise, it's just small time entertainment, like Japanese cartoons and Bollywood, which qualify as enjoyment but far from worship.