Chinese Economics Thread

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Instead of looking at opinions and spins, here's a piece of fact to show how 'tensions are growing between Brazil & China'. :)
The new Brazilian president making China her first official foreign visit outside of South America.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


"On Friday 18 February 2011, 23:08 SGT

Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff will visit China April 13-15, first in a bilateral capacity then to take part in a BRIC summit, her foreign minister, Antonio Patriota, told state television Friday.

"The relationship with China is increasingly important for Brazil," he said.

China is Brazil's principal trading partner and top foreign investor, buying up iron ore, soya products and other raw materials to fuel its dynamic economy, and extending credit to get privileged access to Brazilian oil.

The demand largely underpins Brazil's own economic performance, though unease is building over foreign exchange policies which have seen Brazil's currency, the real, soar against the US dollar and the Chinese yuan......................."

LOL Seems like A.Mace and yourself think that 'Tu Quoque' is the perfect answer to any criticism of China.

Other than telling us that Brazil has a small trade surplus with China, the article is notable in its lack of specifics, especially at the grass root level. Its nothing more than a PR press release prior to President Dilma Rousseff trip, to lessen any negativity she may encounter, with her concerns about the current trade policies between the two countries
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
LOL Seems like theres a couple of people who think that 'Tu Quoque' is the perfect answer to any criticism of China.

Criticism's all fine and good. But the way you just put that article there without offering anything else just seemed so snide to me, almost like a cheapshot and it doesn't give us anything to really reply to.

But maybe it's just me :/

Report about China´s SOE

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Its true that the author is viewing the situation from the standpoint of US companies. But lets face the fact. It is not good that state companies have so much weight in any economy. They are inefficient compared to true private companies. I understand the fact that china wants to cultivate national champions, they want to compete with multinationals. But it creates distortions and inefficencies in the economy. Too much investment creates bubbles. They should give more to chinese households. that way, the economy would rebalance more.

And I think your saying of "investment creates bubbles therefore unsustainable, collapse" is far too simplistic. If too much investment occurs, but you require investment then that's not a bad thing.

But i think that there are too many vested interests for its economy to rebalance. For how long will this situation last before it becomes unsustainable? and what will the consequences be when that happens?

... What? Are you pulling a Chanos on us here?

Oh. And dont come to me saying that this article is BS. At least for once admit that china´s economy is unbalanced. Even their leadership says so.

This article is BS. j/k

But I don't know where you got the idea that no one's said China's economy is unbalanced, I don't think there's any person on this forum who would say China's economy is perfect, whether they're pro or anti.
Yes China's economy is unbalanced. Every economy is unbalanced, no big deal...
 
Last edited:

pla101prc

Senior Member
Report about China´s SOE

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Its true that the author is viewing the situation from the standpoint of US companies. But lets face the fact. It is not good that state companies have so much weight in any economy. They are inefficient compared to true private companies. I understand the fact that china wants to cultivate national champions, they want to compete with multinationals. But it creates distortions and inefficencies in the economy. Too much investment creates bubbles. They should give more to chinese households. that way, the economy would rebalance more.

But i think that there are too many vested interests for its economy to rebalance. For how long will this situation last before it becomes unsustainable? and what will the consequences be when that happens?


Oh. And dont come to me saying that this article is BS. At least for once admit that china´s economy is unbalanced. Even their leadership says so.

to say that SOE's are inefficient compared to private enterprise is just brutal generalization...and to some degree it is BS. any enterprise that are big enough face the risk of being inefficient
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Criticism's all fine and good. But the way you just put that article there without offering anything else just seemed so snide to me, almost like a cheapshot and it doesn't give us anything to really reply to.

But maybe it's just me :/

Perhaps that would have been the better thing to have done. However at the timeI just regarded it as an extension to my earlier post I had commented on about CHina Brazil trade refer Post 1249,
-
Brazil and China: A young marriage on the rocks
Brazil and China: A young marriage on the rocks

Brazil and China: A young marriage on the rocks | Reuters



and my subsequent comments About Free Trade WTO etc etc. Therefore There was no need for any more comments
By the way I was not directing my " Tu Quoque" comment at you."
 
Last edited:

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
That article from Latin Business Chronicle comes out of Miami. What they're doing is trying to paint China as doing the same as in Africa. They're trying to ride on what the West is charging of China in Africa. The right-wing rich and powerful Latins know China has spolied their plans of taking back their homelands by providing alternatives where the West use to be the only one. South America is filled with leaders who come from poverty or their rights have been violated by these very people.

The fact is people throw out these types of charges that China is being unfair is because they're simply drama queens. Their objective is to see China in panic. To do what? Bend over backward or else lose what? It's the same when people say their military can beat China. Where I will come in to say, "Do it!" Saying that is the opposite reaction to what they were expecting and denies them of their sadist entertainment they were seeking. Then someone like me will add salt to the wound by mentioning the reason why they don't do it is because they know they will suffer too no matter how much more damage they can inflict on the other side. That's called an empty threat.

You know where I learned that from. My friend's spoiled little kids who'd tell everyone, "I hate you," just to see people's reaction as if their love were something valuable that was lost. You can apply that to anti-China critics. They do the exact same things like a spoiled little child who thinks they can do anything they want and tease people with things they think are important when they're not. They say things just so they can see China get upset. Yeah, that's the only thing they have because like I said before, if they could carry out an action they threat without any harm to them, don't you think they would've done it? If Brazil is better off with the US, then why don't they just drop relations with China? Are we going to bring the old "China has a gun to my head!" excuse? And then someone like me will say that's an act of war and China is robbing, as Donald Trump in an interview with Fox News would say, "trillions of dollars from us." Well that's a crime and why don't they go to war? Their military can beat China. Everything is in their favor and they haven't done it. What does that tell you about the poeple with the military that can easily beat China? The anti-China critics are like Charlie Sheen right now. They arrogantly think they're on top and in control and always right when they're just digging holes for themselves being an embarrassment and they don't even know it.

And I can tell you right now the anti-China critics reading this will interpret in their black and white logic that I'm saying China arrogantly thinks it's on top or China's military can beat everyone if they can't. Do you see China fighting wars in hot spots everywhere to turn events in their favor?
 
Last edited:

Schumacher

Senior Member
LOL Seems like A.Mace and yourself think that 'Tu Quoque' is the perfect answer to any criticism of China.

Other than telling us that Brazil has a small trade surplus with China, the article is notable in its lack of specifics, especially at the grass root level. Its nothing more than a PR press release prior to President Dilma Rousseff trip, to lessen any negativity she may encounter, with her concerns about the current trade policies between the two countries

Right, who cares about tiny details like the Brazilian president making a state visit to China anyway. bladerunner managed to find an internet article saying tensions are rising between Brazil and China because he so very much wants to believe so, so it must be true then. LOL
 
Latin Business Chronicle is a right-wing newspaper based in Miami and owned by a Manhattan Media, a New York company. It provides an american centric spin on news and not representative of Latin American views. Just look at their commentary and opinion.

I wouldn't put any weight on anything they print. It's for the gullible.
 
Last edited:

Schumacher

Senior Member
That article from Latin Business Chronicle comes out of Miami. What they're doing is trying to paint China as doing the same as in Africa. They're trying to ride on what the West is charging of China in Africa. The right-wing rich and powerful Latins know China has spolied their plans of taking back their homelands by providing alternatives where the West use to be the only one. South America is filled with leaders who come from poverty or their rights have been violated by these very people.
...............

That's the usual habit of western media. Rather than reporting on facts, they report on spins and wishful thinking to influence readers.
Before Obama's recent visit to Brazil, many western media tried hard to spin the 'rumors' that Brazil will join US to complain about the Yuan but nothing happened during the visit.
It's true Lula had been a torn on the west and many of them wish there'll be changes with the new president.
If you want opinions, here's one about Brazil-US ties with the new president so far.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


"At some point in the run-up to Barack Obama’s just concluded tour of Latin America, which included stops in Brazil, Chile, and El Salvador, the US press decided that coverage of the trip would focus on expected friendly meeting with Dilma Rousseff, Brazil's recently inaugurated president.

The Washington Post, the New York Times, and National Public Radio, along with a host of other newspapers, cable news commentators, and blogs, all predicted that Obama, the US's first African American president, and Rousseff, Brazil's first woman leader, would find common ground, reversing the deterioration of diplomatic relations that had begun under Rousseff's predecessor, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva.

The bad blood started, or so the story went, when Lula refused to listen to the administration of George W. Bush and isolate Venezuela's populist leader, Hugo Chávez. Before long, Brasilia was opposing or, worse, offering alternatives to Washington's position on a growing number of issues: climate change, opposition to the 2009 coup in Honduras, Cuba, trade and tariffs.

Lula declined to criticise Iran and opened up a separate negotiating channel, outside of Washington's influence and much to its annoyance, with Tehran to discuss Iran's nuclear ambitions.

Differences on Middle East

The former Brazilian president also welcomed the president of the Palestinian National Authority, Mahmoud Abbas to Brazil, leading the rest of Latin America to recognise the Palestinian state and calling for direct talks with Hamas and Hezbollah.

Various explanations were posited in the US press for Lula's behavior, which, for a Latin American leader, was unprecedented considering the historically subservient role Latin America has long played to Washington. At times it was described as a personality disorder, a striving for attention on the world stage; at other moments it was explained away as Lula's need to play to his party's rank and file, which, apparently, always enjoys a good tweaking of the US's nose.

In any case, Obama's visit just after Dilma's election offered a chance for a reset. Rousseff, it was reported, would be eager to use the trip to distance herself from her political patron, Lula. Though she was a member of a Marxist-Leninist guerrilla organisation opposing a US-backed dictatorship during her youth in the 1970s, Brazil's new leader had, according to the Washington Post, a "practical approach to governance and foreign relations after eight years of the flamboyant Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva".

"She's a different person and has a different style," remarked the chairman of Goldman Sachs asset management.

She was "warm" and would welcome Obama cordially (has it really gotten to the point where the US, which for decades presided imperiously over the international community, is today just happy that foreign leaders aren’t rude when its presidents come calling?). Nearly all major news and opinion sources thought that she would be more accommodating to Washington's concerns than her predecessor, in Latin America but especially in the Middle East.

Unfortunately for Washington the reality has departed from the narrative. Brazil, under Rousseff, continues largely to follow its own diplomatic lights.

Libya and the UN

Even before Obama landed in Rio, Brazil, as a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council, joined with China and Germany to abstain from the vote authorising "all necessary measures" against Libya’s Muammar Gaddafi.

Since then, its opposition to the bombing has hardened. According to the Inter Press Service News Agency (IPS), Brazil's foreign ministry – still, for the most part, staffed by the diplomats who charted Lula's foreign policy – recently issued a statement condemning the loss of civilian lives and calling for the start of dialogue.

Lula himself has endorsed Dilma's critical position on Libya, going further in his condemnation of the intervention: "These invasions only happen because the United Nations is weak," he said. "If we had twenty-first-century representation [in the Security Council], instead of sending a plane to drop bombs, the UN would send its secretary-general to negotiate."

His remarks were widely interpreted to mean that if Brazil had been a permanent member of the Security Council – a position it has long sought – it would have vetoed the resolution authorising the bombing rather than, as it did, merely abstaining from the vote.

These comments were the first indication that the ex-president, still enormously popular and influential in Brazil, planned to continue to openly weigh in on his successor’s foreign policy.

Argentina and Uruguay likewise have voiced strong disapproval of the intervention. On one level, this censure reflects Latin America's commitment to the ideal of non-intervention and absolute sovereignty. But on another, less elevated and more commonsensical level, it reflects a belief that the diplomatic community needs to return to a standard in which war is the last rather than the first response to crisis.

"This attack [on Libya] implies a setback in the current international order," IPS reports Uruguayan President José Mujica as saying. "The remedy is much worse than the illness. This business of saving lives by bombing is an inexplicable contradiction."

Social inclusion vs IMF demands

On other important issues as well, Brazil continues push back against Washington.

The US-controlled International Monetary Fund (IMF), for example, is demanding that Brazil, one of the world's fastest growing economies, calm bond market concerns about inflation by reining in social spending.

Dilma's economic team has so far balked. It argues instead that inflation can be controlled by government regulation of "hot money," that is, the ability of foreign capital to place speculative bets on, and reap enormous profits off of, Brazil’s currency.

This might sound a bit technocratic, but it is in fact a big obstacle to the IMF's bid to restore its lost role as what economist Mark Weisbrot has described as a "creditor’s cartel" in Latin America, the chief mechanism through which Washington imposes "discipline" on economies, like Brazil's, that shows too much independence.

Likewise, Brazil continues to be the main obstacle to jumpstarting the Doha Round of the world trade talks, demanding that the US and Europe lower tariffs to the products and commodities of the developing world. While graciously hosting the US president, Rousseff nonetheless strongly criticized Washington’s ability to preach free trade while practicing protectionism, demanding that the US open its markets to Brazilian imports such as ethanol, steel, and orange juice.

However "warm," "practical," or "cordial" Dilma, Brazil’s first woman president, may be, she'll be no push over when it comes to matters of war, peace, and economics.

Greg Grandin is a professor of history at New York University and a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. He is the author of a number of prize-winning books, including most recently, Fordlandia: The Rise and Fall of Henry Ford’s Forgotten Jungle City (Metropolitan 2009), which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in History, as well as for the National Book Award and the National Book Critics Circle Award. "
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Then there's Turkey and Brazil having meetings with Iran against Western wishes. How about Brazil and India abstaining from using military force on Libya. That can be spun anyway we want it and it'll be legitimate.

Maybe we should open up a thread in here on Western economics and the world. That would turn out anti-Western if we were to without comment post the infinite articles on its leagacy still affecting the world. And I just have to post Western media articles. Did you know before China, the West were opening factories in Africa and paying a wage equal to Western standards of living. Yeah all those Western products like M-16s and FALs in the hands of Africans then were made by Africans.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Latin Business Chronicle is a right-wing newspaper based in Miami and owned by a Manhattan Media, a New York company. It provides an american centric spin on news and not representative of Latin American views. Just look at their commentary and opinion.

I wouldn't put any weight on anything they print. It's for the gullible.

It's very easy to resort to "ad hominen" attacks on the writer of the article than refute what he is saying. After all I could resort to describing Al Jazerra as hardly worth paying attention to ,being the favourite of "left wing pinkos who like to nothing more thanbash" the West and so on.

If you hadnt noticed Horta is also a graduate of the Chinese educational system eg "The Chinese ministry of commerce Central School" and others . Therefore I should imagine he can see both sides of the coin

What I think is saying are saying is China is engaged in a discredited trading model, of cheap consumer items for raw materials.Added to that, when countries partner up with China to take advantage of their lower costs, they are essentially making a short term bet in which China is the winner in the end.

If those apologies of leaders knew what they were doing, Brazil and and other developing countries around the world should be copying China, such as demanding 70% local content in any imports so that their indigenous industry can grow and compete, not fall over.
 
Top