Chinese Economics Thread

Yesterday at 7:40 PM
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  • Trump’s announcement of new 10 per cent tariff on Chinese imports was ‘a serious violation of the consensus of the heads of state’, China’s official news agency says
33 minutes ago

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related:
China won't play victim role amid US tariff hikes
Source:Global Times Published: 2019/8/6 7:55:17
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China announced it was considering levying additional temporary tariffs on US agricultural imports on all agreements made after August 3. Meanwhile, Chinese companies have suspended purchasing US agricultural products. The decision was made following the US move to slap an additional 10 percent in tariffs on $300 billion worth of Chinese goods last week.

The announcement from Beijing send a clear message to Washington that their latest action was unacceptable, and that China will not hesitate to take necessary countermeasures should the US follow through on the tariff hikes.

The US government claimed the added tariffs would be implemented on September 1, as thorough negotiations were scheduled with both delegations in August. It is precisely this unilateral reversal strategy by the US that has had a severe impact on trade negotiations.

US stocks plummeted last Thursday after the US government announced it would continue its trade war with China. On Monday, US stocks fell again at the opening bell over trade tension concerns between the two economic powers. The weak stock market performance served as an indication that the trade war has spared no mercy for the US economy. The only outcome is a lose-lose scenario and falls by the basic fundamentals of economics, and the US government will not be an exception to this principle.

China would like to reach a trade agreement, but this does not mean it is timid. Such a goal is centered on the goodwill and the inherent responsibility that it holds to protect the well-being of others through continuous cooperation with the US. Yet at the same time, when Washington increases tariffs, China will take necessary countermeasures, which should come as no surprise. China has always utilized a rational approach when responding by purposefully limiting its power. Under the latest circumstances, China suspended US agricultural purchases. The move is a typical tit-for-tat action.

If the US incurred an enormous deficit from trade with China, then large-scale Sino-US economic and trade cooperation could not exist. Previous White House administrations were not foolish, neither were US importers and exporters. However, tightening the screws on bilateral trade is the worst possible solution. American farmers have adequate production facilities and plenty of land, but more importantly, they have China with its expanding market demand. Unfortunately, the Trump administration's China watchdog group is not on the right track. The US should take greater responsibility for the development of Sino-US trade.

The US government needs to stop fantasizing about a China surrender brought on by extreme pressure. To establish a trade relationship conducive for a win-win result, both sides must consider each other's concerns when conducting negotiations in a frank and honest manner.

Unilateralism has been a total strategy failure. How could something like that become a "rule" between China and the US? It would only create further losses for both sides and prevent them from reaching any mutual agreements.

It is misleading and naive for the US to downplay its losses from the trade war while praising China's sufferings. It is also a shame how the US government deceives its people. Calculating the exact amount of damages incurred by both sides would be impossible. It will ultimately test economic endurance and the strength of both political systems. China's stamina and endurance will allow the country to prevail throughout the trade war.

After a few rounds of trade negotiations, both sides must have gotten to know each other well. They shouldn't rely on a miracle or an ace in the hole to emerge as a winner, and they need to understand that pursuing a complete victory is unreasonable. Otherwise, it would be a waste of time and public sentiment. Furthermore, US uncertainty is harmful to potential investors.

It seems that many acres of US farmland will not be put to use. Challenging times lie ahead for at least a few Chinese and US businesses. It will depend on the US whether they want to resolve deadlocked trade negotiations before Sino-US relations incur further damage. Although Washington imposed new tariffs, the aim was not to sabotage trade relations. However, Trump's capricious administration could push things too far, which would lead to severe consequences the US never anticipated.

When the Chinese government announced it would suspend purchases of US agricultural products, the word "suspend" was used to indicate how there is room for both parties to reach a solution. It also means the suspension will last until the US adopts a better attitude. This is one of the many soft tools that China has. Although not aggressive, China will stand firm as a nail on their position. The US, now more than ever, should reassess its China strategy.
 
this one is interesting:
China can withstand a long-lasting trade war, say experts
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23:09, 05-Aug-2019

The trade war between China and the United States could go on for another decade and hurt Americans more, experts warned on Monday during a seminar at the Renmin University of China, where 10 Chinese academics gave their analyses on the ongoing dispute. They believe that with strategic thinking and staying power, China can use the situation as an opportunity to upgrade its economy.

The seminar titled "Responding to Bad Faith with Strategic Resistance" came after the 12th round of bilateral trade talks last week in Shanghai. The talks, which the U.S. side has called "constructive," was followed by President Donald Trump's announcement of new tariffs on 300 billion dollars worth of Chinese exports, undoing an earlier agreement between the two countries' leaders in Osaka.

The latest twist in trade negotiations was an unacceptable act of hegemony and bullying and a show of bad faith by the U.S. side, said seminar host Liu Yuanchun, the deputy dean of Renmin University of China in opening remarks.

The speakers suggested that regardless of progress in the trade talks, China should brace itself for the long haul.

The trade war, which began in March 2018, has extended beyond issues of trade deficits to be a strategic contention between an incumbent power and a rising power, said Professor Tong Jiadong, former deputy dean of Nankai University.

"The U.S. strategy is lose-lose. There is no winner in a trade war. What the U.S. is doing is trying to inflict the maximum damage to China's economy with minimal sacrifices," Tong said.

As long as the U.S. is being caught up by another country, it will not stop until it beats the competition, he added, citing past examples of U.S. pressure on Europe, Russia and Japan.

The size of China economy has reached two-thirds, or 60 percent of that of the U.S., posing a far greater competition to the latter than the Soviet Union did during the Cold War, and Japan in 1985, when the U.S.-Japan trade war ended with the Plaza Accord.

"The U.S. negotiators lack sincerity. Negotiation is stick and carrot, but in the past 12 rounds of talks, there were only sticks, no carrots," said Professor Yu Miaojie, deputy dean of the National School of Development at Peking University. They want to beat the Chinese side into submission, he said.

But U.S. policymakers have miscalculated how much China's economy can withstand, experts say, pointing out that the previous 250 billion U.S. dollars in tariffs did not quite deliver the blow Trump had hoped.

China's overall foreign trade size is still growing, with a large decrease in trade with the U.S., noted Zhao Zhongxiu, dean of Shandong University of Finance and Economics.

Official data shows the Chinese economy in the first half of 2019 grew steadily, with improved quality and a more diversified trade structure.

"When external pressure becomes the new norm, it will give China the chance to turn pressure into a driving force," Zhao said.

However, the negative effects on the U.S. economy will be hard to ignore, and there could even be a "Trump recession" as these effects sink in, Tong said.

"The previous 250 billion U.S. dollars didn't affect the American people too much, but the new 300 billion U.S. dollars is going to have an all-round impact, not just on U.S. companies but on the consumers too. It will be a lot worse," said Professor Lang Lihua, former dean of the Capital University of Economics and Business.

The American consumers are going to pick up the bill as consumer goods become the next target, with the agriculture sector particularly hard-hit, Yu said.

Yu also estimated that trade frictions between the two countries could last for a decade.

Besides economics, some experts believe there is a political aspect in the U.S. decision to escalate the trade tension after the Shanghai talks. And what's next will largely depend on the domestic situation in the U.S.

"Politically speaking, China and America are seeing who has the domestic stability to sit it out, and we all know the answer," said Professor Cheng Dawei, a researcher at National Academy of Development and Strategy at the Renmin University of China.

"Trump has got to a critical point, where he cannot keep dropping bombs and setting fires. He behaves like this for political purposes, using Twitter to set a fire and then put it out. But this cannot continue. What do American voters get out of it?"
 
Yesterday at 7:00 PM
now I read
Economic Watch: China confident of keeping yuan stable
Xinhua| 2019-08-05 17:38:56
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now inside
Dow trading higher after China blinks
Updated 12:18 PM ET, Tue August 6, 2019
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:

"China
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at 6.9683 to the dollar, a hair above the key 7:1 ratio to the US dollar. Although that was the weakest level for the yuan in 11 years, many Wall Street investors feared China would price the yuan below that psychological 7:1 barrier."
 
now I read
3rd LD Writethru-Xinhua Headlines: China regrets U.S. decision to label China currency manipulator
Xinhua| 2019-08-06 23:31:31
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China on Tuesday voiced strong opposition to the U.S. decision to label it "a currency manipulator," stressing that China has never resorted to competitive devaluation and will not use the currency as a tool to deal with trade disputes.

In a response to the designation, China's central bank refuted the unilateral move, saying the label does not meet the quantitative criteria for the so-called "currency manipulator" set by the U.S. Treasury.

"The U.S. labeling is an arbitrary unilateral and protectionist practice, which seriously undermines international rules and will significantly impact the global economy and financial markets," the People's Bank of China (PBOC) said in an online statement.

U.S. TYPICAL MAXIMUM-PRESSURE TRICK

Ronald Wen, a Hong Kong-based senior banker, said the alleged currency manipulation is a new weapon used by the U.S. in the trade friction with China, sending a signal that the U.S.-waged trade war is being expanded to more fields, including forex and financial markets.

The U.S. Treasury designation was seen by analysts as a new excuse for more protectionist measures.

The Treasury move reeks of arbitrariness and unilateralism, and will disrupt international trade rules and order as well as dampened investors' confidence, experts said.

"By labeling China a currency manipulator, the U.S. is in fact continuing its maximum-pressure approach in trade talks," said Liao Qun, chief economist of the China CITIC Bank International.

China and the U.S. have been locked up in drawn-out trade disputes since last year.

On Monday, Chinese companies have halted purchases of U.S. farm produce after the U.S. decided to impose additional 10-percent tariffs on 300 billion U.S. dollars worth of Chinese imports, as the U.S. move seriously violated the consensus reached by the two heads of state in Osaka.

NO INTENTION TO DEVALUATE CURRENCY

China has long been committed to keeping the yuan's exchange rate basically stable at a reasonable and balanced level, the central bank said.

The Chinese currency is the strongest among the G20 and is one of the currencies that has seen substantial appreciation.

From the beginning of 2005 to June this year, the currency's nominal exchange rate appreciated 38 percent and real exchange rate strengthened 47 percent.

Last month, the IMF found in its latest annual assessment that the renminbi exchange rate was broadly in line with fundamentals.

From the macro perspective, the yuan's exchange rate is buoyed by the country's sound fundamentals, strong economic resilience, stable fiscal position, controllable financial risks, balanced cross-border capital movement and sufficient foreign exchange reserves.

China has no intention to gain trade advantages by devaluing its currency, as the yuan's depreciation cannot necessarily lift exports, said Song Xiangyan, an analyst with the PBOC.

A large devaluation probably leads to panic capital outflows and competitive currency devaluation of China's trading partners, which will undermine the country's financial stability and hurt imports, Song added.

MARKET-DETERMINED EXCHANGE RATE SYSTEM

China will be committed to the promises on exchange rates made at all G20 summits and abide by a market-determined exchange rate system, the PBOC governor Yi Gang said Monday.

Refusing competitive devaluation, the country will not resort to exchange rates in handling external uncertainties such as trade disputes, Yi said.

Looking ahead, Yi stressed the central bank, together with the State Administration of Foreign Exchange, would maintain stability and continuity of the country's foreign exchange management policy and safeguard market entities' legitimate and reasonable demands for using foreign currencies.

More efforts will be made to deepen the reform and opening up in the field of foreign exchange, promote the liberalization and facilitation of cross-border trade and investment and better serve the real economy and the country's comprehensive opening up, Yi pledged.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
It's interesting how someone who applauded the closing of the Trade War thread is posting all this trade war news. And then posts a comment about the silence in this thread to his trade war news. The self-anointed policeman of this forum is breaking the rules himself. Is this some spin that the silence is because people can't counter against those arguments so then the other side can feign victory when members have been muzzled from talking about the trade war? That's the way it's always been. Stifle other perspectives so that only one is out there so therefore convince yourself it must be right because no one is able to argue against it.

Since trade war news is being posted, does that mean we can discuss the trade war again?
 
54 minutes ago
Yesterday at 7:00 PM
now inside
Dow trading higher after China blinks
Updated 12:18 PM ET, Tue August 6, 2019
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:

"China
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at 6.9683 to the dollar, a hair above the key 7:1 ratio to the US dollar. Although that was the weakest level for the yuan in 11 years, many Wall Street investors feared China would price the yuan below that psychological 7:1 barrier."
now a view from the other side:
Yuan’s trend shows Beijing has initiative in trade war
Source:Global Times Published: 2019/8/6 21:13:40
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The US decision to label China a so-called currency manipulator is likely to push the yuan's ongoing internationalization.

Although China has overtaken the US to become the world's largest trading nation, the share of the yuan in global central bank reserves was only 1.84 percent in the second quarter of 2018, as the US dollar remains the major global reserve currency. China clearly wants the yuan to play a bigger global role, but the US sees a threat from the yuan's internationalization.

The ongoing trade war is prompting China to make strategic adjustments for a possible decoupling of its economy from the US. In that scenario, China is likely to reduce its dependence on the US dollar and push the yuan's global use. The process of the yuan's internationalization is likely to trigger more conflicts between Beijing and Washington.

If the two countries are destined to come into conflict over the yuan's internationalization, the odds are: the sooner, the better.

US President Donald Trump has long talked about labeling China a currency manipulator. It is unavoidable that issues will surface in the process of the yuan's internationalization.

Designating China a currency manipulator has long been an important part of US deterrence to slow down the yuan's internationalization process. But once the US announced that step, its deterrent force substantially weakened. Now China can push the yuan's internationalization without misgivings.

On Monday, the yuan slip past 7 per dollar for the first time since 2008, but it was just a normal market reaction to Trump's latest tariffs threat. The Chinese government did not manipulate its currency and it allowed the yuan to fall to reflect a supply-demand balance on the market. China holds the largest foreign-currency reserves in the world. It would be very easy for the government to support the yuan with its foreign-currency reserves, but China didn't do that. China made full preparations to face a complex situation after the yuan plunged beyond 7 per US dollar.

China's central bank reiterated on Monday that it is confident in its ability to keeping the yuan's exchange rate basically stable. Therefore, China dared to give it a try and allow a free fluctuation on the currency market on Monday. China's ability to maintain economic stability has been vastly strengthened, giving the country's policymakers more confidence in pushing the yuan's internationalization.

The yuan's sudden slump against the US dollar on Monday seems to have exceeded US expectations and triggered a hot debate among US observers. This suggests China now has the initiative in the trade war and won't be content to only play defense.
 

Just4Fun

Junior Member
Registered Member
now I read
3rd LD Writethru-Xinhua Headlines: China regrets U.S. decision to label China currency manipulator
Xinhua| 2019-08-06 23:31:31
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This is a significant development of the great power competition of the 21 century. It appears that the US is ready to depreciate the US dollar to counter-attack other country's "currency manipulations".

Accusing China of manipulating the yuan is a convenient pretext for the US to manipulate the dollar. In the next ten to twenty years, the US and others will engage in a competitive currency devaluation to keep their economy floating. In the end, the country that emerges as a victor from this currency war will surely not be the US.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
This is a significant development of the great power competition of the 21 century. It appears that the US is ready to depreciate the US dollar to counter-attack other country's "currency manipulations".

Accusing China of manipulating the yuan is a convenient pretext for the US to manipulate the dollar. In the next ten to twenty years, the US and others will engage in a competitive currency devaluation to keep their economy floating. In the end, the country that emerges as a victor from this currency war will surely not be the US.

I have 0 knowledge on currency wars. It sounds too complicated and full of unintended consequences especially when were nearing a recession. Hope things don't get out of hand.
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
Accusing China as a currency manipulator is as ridiculous as saying China is paying all those tariffs America currently imposes on imports from China.
PBOC has been defending Yuan "not" to fall as much or as fast as market forces would otherwise have it if no guidance from PBoC. Trade tensions gave Yuan an external shock with steady downward pressures. PBoC have been holding it steady but on Monday it let it go according to market forces,which more or less falls in line with new terms of trade, amid ratcheted up trade tensions with Trump's announcement of new tariffs . That's where a free float Yuan would have been on Monday. PBoC just let some downward pressures out as market demanded depreciation. To prevent the short sellers PBoC is scooping up offshore Yuan liquidity through HK at the same time.
Speaking of currency manipulation, what do you call last week Fed rate cut? Gold standard in hypocrisy?
It's just not Larry Summers alone criticizing this accusation of currency manipulation.
China will not depreciate its Yuan competitively in a reasonably foreseeable future due to her own domestic calculus.



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By naming China a currency manipulator, Mnuchin has damaged his credibility


By Lawrence H. Summers
August 6 at 10:45 AM

Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin on Monday named China a currency manipulator — the first manipulation designation in a generation — and said he would ask the International Monetary Fund to intervene. Mnuchin made clear he was doing President Trump’s bidding after the Chinese central bank allowed its currency to decline by more than 2 percent below the psychologically important level of seven yuan, or renminbi, to the dollar.

Currency manipulation is an important issue and has been recognized as such by the international community. When a country intervenes in the foreign-exchange market to depress its currency so as to promote exports and discourage imports, something equivalent to imposing tariffs on imports and providing subsidies to exports is happening. This is especially of concern when, as in the case of countries previously deemed manipulators, a country is running a substantial trade surplus.

China does not come close to fitting this template. Over the past eight years, it has reduced its trade surplus from more than 8 percent of GDP to essentially zero in response to U.S. pressure. Its interventions in currency markets over the past several years have been to prop up its currency rather than to drive it down. And the move down in the yuan on Monday was not artificial — it was an entirely natural market response to newly imposed U.S. tariffs. Without some mercantile advantage, and with ongoing efforts to prop up the exchange rate and so raise export prices and reduce import prices, there is no credible manipulation claim here.

By labeling as Chinese currency manipulation an exchange-rate move that was obviously a natural response to his boss’s policies, the secretary has damaged his credibility and that of his office. It will be harder now in the next difficult financial moment for Treasury Department pronouncements to be credited by market participants. Having seen the United States label China a manipulator, the world will wonder whether and how the United States will get China to change its exchange-rate policies. If Chinese policies do not change, we will have only demonstrated our impotence to China and the world. Why is that desirable?

Further, the president’s flailing bluster, in which the treasury secretary is now a full participant, risks real economic damage as businesses and consumers become fearful and hold off on spending. There is a growing concern that exchange-market developments will be an excuse for yet more tariffs against China, or for the United States to start buying up Chinese currency. Markets in recent days have reacted in ways suggesting high alarm, with investors flooding into safe-haven assets such as bonds, gold and even bitcoin and flooding out of riskier assets such as stocks and loans to businesses. The risk of recession going forward might now be as high as any time since the 2008 financial crisis.

There is a final problem with the Treasury Department’s manipulation claims. The United States has an enormous agenda with China — North Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, aggressiveness in the Pacific region, unfair trade practices and much more. We have only limited capacity to shape Chinese behavior. Should we not focus on areas where our position is clearly right and the stakes are high rather than areas where our claims are dubious and prosecuting them damages our economy?

Lawrence H. Summers
Lawrence Summers is a professor at and past president of Harvard University. He was treasury secretary from 1999 to 2001 and an economic adviser to President Barack Obama from 2009 through 2010.
 
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