AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
Well then you have nothing to worry about, do you? Just like China won't be able to conduct an ASAT test for another ten years.
Chinese Aviation Industry
- Thread starter FriedRiceNSpice
- Start date
Well then you have nothing to worry about, do you? Just like China won't be able to conduct an ASAT test for another ten years.
I think the aircraft engine is a more daunting challenge ... much more than designing planes.
When J-10 completely shift to WS-10A, it will be a significant leap forward.
But as of now, just to quote the "notorious" wikipedia:
"However, given the poor quality of the engine and other development difficulties, the PLAAF is reluctant to integrate the WS-10 onto the aircraft."
When J-10 completely shift to WS-10A, it will be a significant leap forward.
But as of now, just to quote the "notorious" wikipedia:
"However, given the poor quality of the engine and other development difficulties, the PLAAF is reluctant to integrate the WS-10 onto the aircraft."
From what we can see and the developement speed of Chinese fighters, she is pretty much moving up the ladder and at an incredible rate, given that her technological advancement only started going off in recent decades, unlike the west who are flying since the WWI.
I am not saying that China's aerospace industries are better than the Western aerospace industries such as Boeing and BAe. But the gap is closing. We might be seeing much better fighters than the J-10 and J-11B in coming years.
I do question the Chinese press's claim of breaking the Boeing/Airbus duopoly status too, but that is the press's claim, not the official claim or the government's claim.
And don't you even underestimate the capability of Sweden. Yes, she is a small country with a small population... but she is also the first country that actually created a supersonic fighter. Also don't ever underestimate any small nation. Look to Japan... during WWII, they created the fastest fighter in the world - Zero Fighter. Do not ever measure the capability of a nation due to its size and the size of her population.
Asymptote
Banned Idiot
I am worrying!
The external threat around China are multiplying at accelerated rate.
The US is leading the "containment" strategy while supplying its puppet allies with advance weaponry (Even the Russians are doing the same too).
How exactly does DSIntakes exactly worsen aerodynamic performance? This isn't a challenge but a real question -- can you explain the physics of it? (From my reading, it doesn't limit aerodynamic performance -- there was an american article on Lockheed Martin testing DSI on an F-16 and discovering that the the performance was the same as a normal intake.)
And media from all countries become sensational every now and then; I don't think anyone seriously thinks that COMAC will break Airbus and Boeing's duopoly any time in the forseeable future.
I do question what you mean by "It can't even compare to Sweden" -- are you saying that China hasn't made any aerospace achievements which are comparable or superior to the Gripen? (I get the feeling that you're implying the J-10, J-11B, JF-17 etc are all miles inferior to the Gripen, in which case we'll have to assess the planes individually).
On your claim that China is limited in research and development -- just because they don't choose to proclaim to the world that they have something doesn't mean they don't have it. I know that may seem a stupid and wishful way of thinking but... really? Do you really think that all china can undertake is " "studies" to various airframe configurations" ???
Most people outside China, don't differentiate between Chinese press and the Chinese govt -- wrongly or rightly, I do not know. It's a perception.
Anyway, I do buy the claim about China venturing into breaking the duopoly.
Why doesn't China simply reverse engineer Boeing 737 or A-320 ?
Second, why can't China reverse engineer an aircraft engine, too.
It did manage to reverse engineer the engine used for Mig-21 also.
Also, J-11 is reverse engineered Su-27 .. but what engine powers the J-11, as of now? Is Russia okay to provide engines for it's own reverse engineered planes ?
Asymptote
Banned Idiot
Rhino123, I think its easy to catch up on the early phase of any technological development because the level of knowledge is shallow. First Generation, 2nd Generation fighters are relatively simple in today's term. But as technology advances, the COMPLEXITY INCREASES EXPONENTIALLY, there are more details, knowledge base, production/manufacturing and material science details to consider - Just look at US/Russian aviation development - The early 1950s had few fighters because it was the beginning of jet fighter era - but once they understand it - many, MANY variants of fighter jet design suddenly spring up (F-104, F4, F5, Mig series etc), but then the technological complexity becomes so vast - it becomes the bottleneck again (witness US taking 20 years to produce 1 variant of this generation - F-22 and still developing another variant).
The number of variants of design in my eyes count for something because it shows the depth of knowledge and the mastery requires before one can go to the next level. And right now China doesn't seem to produce many indigenous designs compare to the Russian/US/EU, and that's what worries me.
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As to China breaking the duopoly of Boeing/airbus, I don't see the chance of that, at least at the present. She might be quite good at manufacturing small fighters but till date, she didn't have a huge passenger plane. The recent passenger plane that China build is still consider small as compared to the airbus and Boeing.
As for the Mig-21, the engine is by far less complicated and it was the 60s technology. China could reverse engineered and even improve on these engines, but as mentioned, they are low tech as compared to the Su 27 series of fighters' engines.
I do not think J-11 is being powered by Chinese engines at this moment, all of them are still using Russian engines. China build alot of J-11 using Russian's kits as part of the licence produce agreement. Later they built their own J-11, still powered by the Russian's engine. J-11B might be using the WS-10A (not sure).
Actually reverse engineering is not a simple task. Not everything can be reverse engineered without full understanding of what is going on inside. Modern engines are not like old engines, they have lots of electronic and digital controls and huge amount of other mumbo jumbo. These things are not easily reverse engineered.
Also I believe that China is moving slowly away from the trend of reverse engineering products and instead going towards indigenious design and production like what most countries of some status is doing.
I'm sorry, but WTF??
"The latest focus is still improving the J-8"...????
By latest, do you mean the most recent? (If they came out with a plan yesterday to install some new avionics or whatever to existing J-8's then sure I'll bite -- but you make it sound like all the development is going to the J-8!)
Haven't you heard of the J-10B, J-11B, J-15?
And what do you mean by superficially improving the J-10 and J-11B? I'll understand if you say the J-11B is/was moving along a bit slow, but superficial improvements?? If you want to compare the J-11B to the Flankers China received back in the 90's...
And the J-10B, simply from pictures is obviously much more capable than the J-10, even if the posts of it having AESA radar were false.
You also claim that the J-10, J-11B were "cloned" from the F-16, Lavi, Eurofighter and Flanker series, respectively... No one is saying the J-11B isn't a "clone" of a flanker -- but it's plain ignorant to say "oh it looks the same therefore it performs the same" (which is what you're implying at least). New materials, avionics, engines have an impact on performance as well... At least I am certain that the J-11B isn't a decrease in performance from the PLAAF's old Su-27's...
And really, do you want to get into the argument that J-10 is a clone of F-16/Lavi/Eurofighter? (Let's through gripen and rafale in the mix as well, just for fun eh?...)
On China getting 5th gen fighters... I can direct to the CCTV interview of the PLAAF general saying that they will get 5th gen fighters from 2017-2019 (onlast year's airforce day), and that a general wouldn't be making such a claim if they weren't completely certain that such an event would be guaranteed (espicially so as China is very sensitive about face -- if a 5th gen fighter didn't emerge 2017-2019 then it woudl be quite a loss of face)...
But really I think the best compromise would be simply to wait a couple of decades and then come back to this question with a definite answer.
(Btw; it's quite ridiculous to call the Jf-17 comparable to the F-5/third generation... Did third generation planes have MRAAM (fire and forget) missiles? Fly by wire? And the JF-17 can be modified for varying avionics, so if a client decides to install an AESA...)
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The Chinese had to start somewhere, don't they. Even the US, Russian, French, Germany and UK started somewhere and at some place. R&D is not like it can speed up light years by just throwing money into it (I remember someone saying this in this forum, so I just quote him).
The Chinese is moving at the right direction and as long as they keep moving in this direction, they are going to make it pretty quickly too.
The reason for the US to take so long in coming out with very high tech products such as the F-22 was the fact that she was the only country creating this product with no precedent. And so many things are trial and error.
The Chinese although started later... might get there quicker, because they learn from what mistakes others make... even if those mistakes are not published. And also appearance of these aircrafts, would have given the Chinese valuable insight into designing stealth aircrafts too.
When the US started designing the B-2 and F117, they are the first in stealth technology... nothing to fall back on. But as time past, stealth technology matured and the Chinese learned, they will be able to come up with similar design. Look at Japanese car industries in the 50s... they are nowhere near the European's car design, look again at their industries in the 70s, then 80s... they have practically slaughtered european car industries.