TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
I would agree if he had said the Comac ARJ21 Xiangfeng, Although it has given a number of lessons. C919 has yet to show any a fail or a Success. Still it will take more then the C919 to break the Airbus Boeing market.
Chinese Aviation Industry
- Thread starter FriedRiceNSpice
- Start date
The fact that COMAC is still a new company which has yet to fully develop a plane, the fact that china has never built a civilian plane of this size before, and the fact that china is dependent on hesitant foreign suppliers. ARJ21 project was transferred to COMAC. The difficulties in developing ARJ21 don’t bode well for c919 timely development. Certainly, there are going to be many delays and difficulties.
Eventually the plane will fly and enter service in china, where it has a huge state-owned airlines domestic market, no matter what the delays or plane performance is. However, I bet the plane won’t sell much if anything internationally because of delays/plane performance/reliability, and the fact that this is china´s first civilian plane of this size. People first will want to know if china can build a plane safe enough to be competitive. China needs track record in this field, so that customers can be confident in its planes, something that won’t happen with the first plane (c919)
Im sure that the next generation of COMAC planes will certainly be better, but to expect c919 to be a international commercial success is not realistic IMO.
Perhaps you don’t want to talk about the financial success (or lack of it) of sukhoi superjet. The latest news of the company are not very good. Sukhoi´s civilian aircraft division is bankrupt, and only state support keeps it afloat.
Unlike China, Russia doesn’t have a huge domestic market to prop its nascent civilian aircraft industry. Which is surprising, if we remember USSR´s huge aircraft industry. According to Wikipedia, in the late 80´s, it had 25% of the civilian and 40% of the military aircraft markets worldwide.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
The USSR did that because the Russian government bought all the Soviets and the Soviet allies had no other option.
However see Embraer, all sales of Embraer aircraft are in the US, Europe and most are for export.
To put you an simple example ERJ-145 has more than 900 aircraft sold, most of them for export.
E-170 series is the same, Phenom is the same.
Embraer is today`s 3th largest civil aircraft company in the world and has even a military line of products.
Why the success? Embraer aircraft are a mosaic of western, Japanese sub-systems.
So buying Embraer means buying too US, European and Japanese products.
COMAC is developing a larger aircraft than E-170 series, by going International, with Western Sub-systms they are saying you are buying western.
While Sukhoi might have problems, they are not a reason to cliam cooperation is bad as you claim, plus Embraer has not, Embraer basicly cheapens the price by making some subsystems and fuselage segments in Brazil, but mostly it has parts from nations as diverse as Chile, US, Japan, Argentina, Germany and design help by Russia and even sub-systems made in mexico.
Why ARJ-21 has not success beyond China?
First is the jet is competing with very new designs, E-170, CS100, Sukhoi Superjet, MRJ, second it has problems of design.
Bombardier is ramping up its relationship with Chinese aircraft manufacturer Comac amid intensified pressure from a new line of regional planes to be launched by Brazilian rival Embraer.
The Montreal-based manufacturer said Monday it signed a new agreement with Comac to enhance the commonalities between the CSeries and the C919 widebody aircraft from Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China Ltd
Sukhoi revenues fell nearly 20 percent to $60mn and its "other expenses" grew from $200mn to over $450mn, according to the company’s financial report conducted to Russian accounting standards.
The damage was mainly due to foreign exchange differences and the need to pay debts in foreign currency, finam.ru quotes the report. The aircraft producer says it will stick to its production plan of 26 aircraft this year and another 40 expected in 2014
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Guys (and I am meaning you too Mig-29), can we stop always going in circle, then bringing in Russia and Mexico and stuff like that and focus on China's aviation Industry. Seriously... I wonder why the mods agreed to always let this go... when some one came in to feed some flame baits, bringing in how good Russia is... how good Latin american is... what China must do and whatsnot.
Then everyone would start jumping for national pride or whatsnot, and ending with someone feeling hurt that everyone is attacking him, when it was he was started the bloody debate.
Please... please, just keep to the main topic... and that is focus on China Aviation Industry and not other nation's industry, is that soooo difficult to ask?
Then everyone would start jumping for national pride or whatsnot, and ending with someone feeling hurt that everyone is attacking him, when it was he was started the bloody debate.
Please... please, just keep to the main topic... and that is focus on China Aviation Industry and not other nation's industry, is that soooo difficult to ask?
Pointblank
Senior Member
The aviation industry is very unusual in that the lowest price isn't the most popular option. Otherwise, airlines would be rushing to buy Boeing 767's over the 787 and the Airbus A330, and they would continue to buy the current generation 737 and A320 over the next generation versions.
For a civil aircraft to be truly successful in terms of sales, it has to offer airlines better or comparable efficiency over other aircraft on the market for the same mission at the time of delivery. Your aircraft has to be more efficient, or close enough that if you have the advantage in terms of availability (you can deliver your aircraft earlier), or can carry more on the same mission. After these considerations are met, then price becomes a factor.
Every new aircraft manufacturer in the past 40 years have accomplished this; they came out with a product that was more efficient and came at the right time on the market to become successful; e.g. Airbus with the A300, followed by the A320, and Embraer with the EMB 120 Brasilia.
The only advantage the C919 had was that it was supposedly more efficient at a earlier time frame than either Boeing or Airbus can get their next generation offerings to market. It's loosing its competitive advantage due to increasing delays, which are delaying the C919 to the point where competitors can get their aircraft to market earlier, and be more efficient to boot.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
I agree with you completly.
Efficiency is what airliners want, safety and efficiency, the industrial conections China does also correspond to alliances to boost their products or subsystems such as COMAC-Bombardier or Harbin Embraer Aircraft Industry Co., Ltd.
The Chinese aircraft manufactures have studied the strategies of other aerospace industries.
Harbin Embraer Aircraft Industry Co., Ltd is an example, Today`s COMAC is doing alliances with Bombardier to boost C919 and BVombardier CS series.
China has also Cessna manufacturing
A Cessna Aircraft Co. executive said Monday that a joint venture between it and China Aviation Industry General Aircraft Co. to manufacture airplanes is progressing.
William Schultz, Cessna senior vice president of business development for China, said at the Asian Business Aviation Conference & Exhibition that construction of facilities to produce the Citation XLS+ business jet and Caravan turboprop for sale in China is complete
Read more here:
The Canadian company has been at the forefront of Western aircraft builders in integrating China into its global supply chain. The fuselage for its Q400 turboprop already is produced there, and the fuselage for the CSeries will be. Bombardier believes the CSeries is ideally sized for China’s rapidly expanding airline market. Yet the company has not sold a passenger aircraft in China in more than seven years. “The only thing I can think of is that Bombardier is trying to generate some orders in China” by teaming with Comac, says Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia. “Other than that, what is the point? I’m baffled.”
China aerospace is well centered in the supply, design and manufacture within the the globalization needs.
It has competition, but is well prepared to deal economically since it is very complex and diverse since it suppies, designs and manufacture.
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asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Even if COMAC doesn't even get one single international order it's still can be a massive success, it's actually built to take the national market not the international market, and with 380 orders in the bag with another 1000-1500 more expected in the next 10-15 years from Chinese market that's a huge success
COMAC whole stratdgy is to eat into Airbus and Boeing profits from inside China, to cut them profit and give the money to Chinese aircraft makers, if they manage to slice 20-25% profit for single asile 150-170 seater then that's great for China
Whole point in ARJ21 and C919 is to stop vast amounts of money filling the pockets of Western aircraft makers, so far they have already cut almost 700 orders from Boeing and Airbus with ARJ-21 and C919 which is very good news
Only after Chinese market is nailed will the international market competition start, Iran air alone has a requirement for 100 C919 sized jets, in 10 years that could be 200 units massive potential there
Also u must under stand no one in the West will allow Chinese plane makers to make it big, so China has to push it alone, that's why C919 engine has been cancelled, nothing new there China will have to work harder to make home grown engine
broadsword
Brigadier
China has to prove the quality and safety of the aircraft on home sky first anyway. And if Dalai Lama comes knocking on western leaders' doors again, it can turn away from Boeing and Airbus. And yes, the domestic market will keep them very busy.
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TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Success perhaps but not huge or Massive the Goal of An Isolated Economy is rather foolish. As it weakens one position in political and technological standing. The massive growth of the Chinese standing was a result of the opening of the Great Chinese Iron curtain to western investment, Closing it would result in stagnation and degeneration. Export is needed. even if it's to developing nations like Kenya and and other emerging African nations As it stands now the vast majority of Chinese exports are going their now. Africa with it's economic expansion plans and China's investments. I mean a good number of African Airlines are single or double plane Carriers, the largest are still only flying maybe 80 jets of Comac C919 and ARJ class Still they are likely to face stiff competition the regional market is flooded with Emerging types. And with out a international long range carrier they are not going to be biting into Boeing and Airbus. Now if they produce there spoken of C929 a 300 seat liner getting into the 767 330 class that would be getting attention.