Chinese Aviation Industry

ACuriousPLAFan said:

The paragraph is sourced from this article by The Paper, dated 18 February 2022. Likely to have been written by COMAC (or related departments/subsidiaries):

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Speaking of the CXF, I found this tender notice for comprehensive integrated verification platform for aircraft (boarding and emergency) cabin doors, published by COMAC in late-December last year.

Posted by @善良的飞天行者 underneath the original post on Weibo.

View attachment 127762

Speaking of the C939, here's an alleged rough specifications for the airliner. Apparently some interested in the C939 appeared in the past couple days.

Posted by @饭Sir看天下 on Weibo and others on Baidu several days ago, the authenticity of the following information cannot be verified:

View attachment 127763

From the comments, it appears that the C939 could be COMAC's counterpart to the Airbus A350 or Boeing 777X, while the CXF might be COMAC's counterpart to the Airbus Beluga XL. Of course, none of these equivalence have been verified and confirmed, so take them with a massive pinch of salt here.

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September 10th, 2023. Plenary session of #2023Pujianginnovationforum

He Dongfeng, secretary of Party committee and Chairman of COMAC..

after 15 years of development, three products. ARJ21/C919/C929 have initially formed. through these three aircrafts a basic product pedigree has been formed. two aircrafts have entered in the market and one is in development. there will be new development models in the future..

that's his statement. last line is really interesting. but interpretation of ''New development models'' could be be vary..
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COMAC officially announced C919 shorter and stretched variants. C929 will also have different variants.



this is just the basic CGI to compare C929 with other wide body aircrafts.. look at the actual size of C929-600.. C929 will also have two different models..

COMAC also researching Blended wing body civil aircraft in close collaboration with Chinese universities. COMAC even showcase the model in Zhuhai airshow as well..





in fact, Northwestern Polytechnical University in Xian successfully flown a subscale BWB aircraft model. and NPU-300 model solved the long standing take off and landing problem and significantly improved the performance also solved the emergency evacuation problem..

this NPU-300 model is designed to carry 300 passengers and with the range of 13,000 KM..

fun fact - USA tried to hack this university. NPU is one of the most prestigious Aerospace/aviation institute in whole of Asia. also the leading Chinese aviation university..
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its too early to talk about C939.. but COMAC actively exploring next generation civil aviation product.. BWB is high on agenda it seems.

sunnymaxi said:

September 10th, 2023. Plenary session of #2023Pujianginnovationforum

He Dongfeng, secretary of Part committee and Chairman of COMAC..

after 15 years of development, three products. ARJ21/C919/C929 have initially formed. through these three aircrafts a basic product pedigree has been formed. two aircrafts have entered in the market and one is in development. there will be new development models in the future..

that's his statement. last line is really interesting. but interpretation of ''New development models'' could be be vary..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

COMAC officially announced C919 shorter and stretched variants. C929 will also have different variants.

View attachment 127798

this is just the basic CGI to compare C929 with other wide body aircrafts.. look at the actual size of C929-600.. C929 will also have two different models..

COMAC also researching Blended wing body civil aircraft in close collaboration with Chinese universities. COMAC even showcase the model in Zhuhai airshow as well..

View attachment 127799

View attachment 127800

in fact, Northwestern Polytechnical University in Xian successfully flown a subscale BWB aircraft model. and NPU-300 model solved the long standing take off and landing problem and significantly improved the performance also solved the emergency evacuation problem..

this NPU-300 model is designed to carry 300 passengers and with the range of 13,000 KM..

fun fact - USA tried to hack this university. NPU is one of the most prestigious Aerospace/aviation institute in whole of Asia. also the leading Chinese aviation university..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
its too early to talk about C939.. but COMAC actively exploring next generation civil aviation product.. BWB is high on agenda it seems.

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I don't think it is a very accurate representation of a Boeing jet, there are too many doors still attached and the engine is in one piece?

New routes for China Southern:


RIYADH: Aviation firm China Southern Airlines has been given the green light by Saudi Arabia to operate flights between Riyadh and three cities in the Asian country.
The Kingdom’s General Authority of Civil Aviation, through its Air Transport and International Cooperation Sector, authorized the company to commence regular operations from Beijing, Guangzhou, and Shenzhen to the Saudi capital, according to a statement.

Starting April 16, the travel schedule will include four passenger or commercial flights, as well as three air cargo trips, a week.
This initiative is part of GACA’s continuous efforts to strengthen connectivity and broaden the Kingdom’s air transport network as part of the objectives of Saudi Vision 2030.
These measures aim to transform the region into a global logistics hub and open new opportunities for the sector, aligning with the ambitions of the Saudi Aviation Strategy.
These developments come as a new air route between Riyadh and Shanghai was established in March, thanks to a collaboration between the Saudi Air Connectivity Program and China Eastern Airlines.
The pair had agreed to enter into a partnership directly linking Pudong Airport and King Khalid International Airport in the Kingdom’s capital, the Saudi Press Agency reported at that time.
The services were scheduled to commence on April 8, with the route set to operate with an A330-200 aircraft, offering an annual capacity of 35,880 inbound seats.
This move is set to enhance air connectivity between Saudi Arabia and China and falls in line with the growing interest and demand for travel between the two nations.
In February, top officials from both countries convened for a high-level meeting in Beijing, focusing on investment opportunities, technology transfer, and enhancing economic cooperation.
The high-level delegation, led by Abdulaziz Al-Duailej, president of the Kingdom’s General Authority of Civil Aviation, visited the Asian country to convene a joint round table meeting, exploring cooperation in connectivity and discussing partnership aspects across various areas.
During the visit, both nations also discussed the exploration of innovative solutions in aviation, including sustainable fuels, advanced air mobility, and traffic management systems.
Interest was also expressed in integrating artificial intelligence and digital technologies to enhance the aviation experience and operational efficiency.
Additionally, during its visit, the Saudi delegation emphasized the substantial investments in the sector and reiterated the Kingdom’s openness to further opportunities.
This aligns with GACA’s goal of modernizing the airport system and supports the Kingdom’s tourism sector target of attracting 150 million visitors by 2030.

Is there a need for C939 that 929 couldn't do? There is a very thin market for ultra long haul and most buyers are Chinese airlines initially

pbd456 said:

Is there a need for C939 that 929 couldn't do? There is a very thin market for ultra long haul and most buyers are Chinese airlines initially

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Assuming the claim that the C939 is COMAC's equivalent to the Airbus A350 and Boeing 777X is accurate - Yes, they do need the C939.

Granted that nobody other than the Russians would like to build quad-jets today (which means very weak market potential beyond the Russian borders) - It wouldn't hurt for COMAC to pursue the development and launch of airliners in the A350/777X-category either, given how there are already 1200+ orders for the A350 and 400+ orders for the 777X. Besides, the 777X's predecessor, i.e. the original 777 series have accumulated a total of 1700+ orders.

This certainly doesn't look like a very thin market.

Moreover, unlike the C919 and C929, both of which are being developed when COMAC is barely an amateur player in the major airliner industry, the C939 should be be rolled out in the late-2030s at the earliest if not in the 2040s, i.e. when COMAC is expected to already become an established, significant player in the industry. As long as things are going well for COMAC and China in general, the market for the C939 would have already been present and ready when the C939 makes its maiden flight - Both domestic and foreign.

Furthermore, having the freighter variant of the C939 will also become a plus factor for COMAC, mainly because how major cargo airlines do prefer larger-sized airliners as freighters due to their comparably massive payload capacity. That's why you see Airbus and Boeing offer production freighter variants for their A350 and 777/X series, but not for their A330neo and 787 series today. In fact, that's among the reasons why there are a lot of the freighter variants of the 747 flying around today, while the passenger variants are getting retired left-and-right. On the other hand, much of the freighter variants of the A330ceo and 767 you see today are either offered fresh by Airbus and Boeing before the A350 and 777/X were rolled out en-masse, or have been converted from passenger variants.

Sooner or latter, the freighter variants of the 767 and A330 (both production and converted) will approach their retirement age. And with the 747 series ended completely, there is no new large-sized freighter models offered by Airbus and Boeing other than the 777X and A350 series. COMAC's C939(F) might be useful in breaking up the duopoly and offer a new alternative for freighters in said category (assuming no major groundbreaking changes to the market sector by then).

ACuriousPLAFan said:

Assuming the claim that the C939 is COMAC's equivalent to the Airbus A350 and Boeing 777X is accurate - Yes, they do need the C939.

Granted that nobody other than the Russians would like to build quad-jets today (which means very weak market potential beyond the Russian borders) - It wouldn't hurt for COMAC to pursue the development and launch of airliners in the A350/777X-category either, given how there are already 1200+ orders for the A350 and 400+ orders for the 777X. Besides, the 777X's predecessor, i.e. the original 777 series have accumulated a total of 1700+ orders.

This certainly doesn't look like a very thin market.

Moreover, unlike the C919 and C929, both of which are being developed when COMAC is barely an amateur player in the major airliner industry, the C939 should be be rolled out in the late-2030s at the earliest if not in the 2040s, i.e. when COMAC is expected to already become an established, significant player in the industry. As long as things are going well for COMAC and China in general, the market for the C939 would have already been present and ready when the C939 makes its maiden flight - Both domestic and foreign.

Furthermore, having the freighter variant of the C939 will also become a plus factor for COMAC, mainly because how cargo airlines typically prefer larger airliners as freighters due to their comparably massive payload capacity. That's why you see Airbus and Boeing offer production freighter variants for their A350 and 777/X series, but not for their A330neo and 787 series today. In fact, that's among the reasons why there are a lot of the freighter variants of the 747 flying around today, while the passenger variants are getting retired left-and-right. On the other hand, much of the freighter variants of the A330 and 767 you see today are either offered fresh by Airbus and Boeing before the A350 and 777/X rolled out en-masse, or have been converted from passenger variants.

Sooner or latter, the freighter variants of the 767 and A330 (both production and converted) will approach their retirement age. And with the 747 series ended completely, there is no new large-sized freighter models offered by Airbus and Boeing other than the 777X and A350. COMAC's C939 might come just in time to break the duopoly and offer a new alternative for freighters in said category.

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He's (@pbd456) referring to the configuration of C929, which is in the range of +250 to +300 seats, the same as the A330/350 & B777/787 families offered; therefore, what C939 could provide to C929 in terms of seats is what he's referring to.

aahyan said:

He's (@pbd456) referring to the configuration of C929, which is in the range of +250 to +300 seats, the same as the A330/350 & B777/787 families offered; therefore, what C939 could provide to C929 in terms of seats is what he's referring to.

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He did not mention anything about seats.

And speaking of seats - Naturally, the A350 and 777X are able to offer more seats than the A330neo and 787. But of course, this largely depends on how individual airlines prefer their seating configurations on those airliners, of which you're mostly right on that count.

This is beside the cargo payload capacity (from having a bigger fuselage) and range (from having larger space allocations for bigger and/or additional fuel tanks), of which airliners in the A350/777X-category obviously excels compared to airliners in the A330neo/787-category. Of course, they also lose out in terms of procurement and operational costs.

The above characteristics apply similarly to the C929 and C939 (if the claims are accurate).

ACuriousPLAFan said:

He did not mention anything about seats.

And speaking of seats - Naturally, the A350 and 777X are able to offer more seats than the A330neo and 787. But of course, this largely depends on how individual airlines prefer their seating configurations on those airliners, of which you're mostly right on that count.

This is beside the cargo payload capacity (from having a bigger fuselage) and range (from having larger space allocations for bigger and/or additional fuel tanks), of which airliners in the A350/777X-category obviously excels compared to airliners in the A330neo/787-category. Of course, they also lose out in terms of procurement and operational costs.

The above characteristics apply similarly to the C929 and C939 (if the claims are accurate).

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The question remains: What additional features, in terms of both passenger and freighter configurations, could C939 offer over C929? Unless it will be in the A380 or B747 league.

aahyan said:

The question remains: What additional features, in terms of both passenger and freighter configurations, could C939 offer over C929? Unless it will be in the A380 or B747 league.

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Perhaps you can re-read what I have written in my previous two posts.

The A350s and 777/Xs are, in fact, meant to (directly or indirectly) superceed the A380 and 747 series with better operational and maintenance efficiency and costs, albeit with fewer seats than the double-decker duos (which may not matter much to airlines, especially when taking the ability to consistently fill up all the seats onboard those airliners into account).

Besides (and most importantly), having two engines versus having four engines alone makes non-insignificant differences.

ACuriousPLAFan said:

Perhaps you should reread what I have written in the previous two posts of mine.

The A350s and 777Xs are, in fact, meant to succeed the A380s and 747s with better operational and maintenance efficiency and costs, even with fewer seats than the double-decker duos. Having two engines versus having four engines alone makes non-insignificant differences.

Again, the characteristics apply similarly to the C939 versus the C929.

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Seems you missed the notion of my pervious posts, The talk centers on what C939 could provide when C929 matches most, if not all, of the characteristics of the A330/350 and B777/787 families.