Thats what i have tought for a long time. ARJ21 and even C919 (CR929 seems to be going nowhere), they are crash programs to get experience for future projects. Just like in the semiconductor industry, china will have to spend a lot of time and money to get a minimally competitive industry.
Chinese Aviation Industry
- Thread starter FriedRiceNSpice
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Thats what i have tought for a long time. ARJ21 and even C919 (CR929 seems to be going nowhere), they are crash programs to get experience for future projects. Just like in the semiconductor industry, china will have to spend a lot of time and money to get a minimally competitive industry.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
What you mean by minimally competitive industry China do need plenty of regional jet since large swath of the west with their sparsely population wont make it economical to built dense railway network unlike in the eastern sea board. So there is real need for regional jet to serve these area. China has recently announce to built vast number of regional air port. ARJ 21 has receive 600 order sofar so even discounting some of them they are close to break even number
But the real benefit of ARJ 21 program is to prepare for C919 program Since China does not have civilian air industry before ARJ21. Designing plane is one thing but plane need support like training, maintenance, logistic, parts and marketing all the ancillary industry connected with aerospace industry. All has to be built from the ground up.
Not to forget developing civilian aerospace supply chain since most of the components for ARJ 21 is still imported. China does have military transport supply chain that is now can be augmented with civilian transport plane.
Here what I said about ARJ 21 in CDF
ARJ is complete success now that the production line has been ramp up to 30 per year and the second line in Pudong is open The first production plane just recently tested
All those crap from Aboulafia saying that ARJ 21 is overweight is nothing but bullcrap. China has hundred of regional airport opening up in the west They need stronger engine for taking off from high altitude airport That is why the engine is slightly oversize and yes you pay penalty with range This is plane design primarily to serve the western region of China where population density is thin and distance is vast
Certainly it take a long time to develop ARJ 21 because China never has any commercial airplane industry before She start from scratch and She has no access to Western tech everything she has to develop herself. Talking about late who about Mistubishi regional jet It take much longer development time than ARJ 21
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The guy/gal is clueless: semiconductor industry will be minimally competitive after a lot of time and money, WS-19 will never fly; ARJ-21 and C919 are just crash program...
By the way, CR929 may go nowhere, which is great, but C929 will definitely go somewhere.
Just ignore him/her.
I think given Chinese ambitions the C929 will happen. With or without Russian involvement.
China needs to make its own indigenous substitutes for the ARJ21 and C919 aircraft in the long run though.
This way the industry would become sanction proof and not suffer from the same issues which plagued the semiconductor industry.
The US can sanction sales of aircraft parts for any token less than plausible reason.
These aircraft could also take the plunge and use more modern construction materials. They could be done over the next decade.
As usual the issue with China IMHO is lack of native engines. I think their industry is finally getting the hang of it and they did make investments into advanced materials at least since a decade ago. But it will take time for the knowledge gained thus far to percolate through the industry.
China needs to make its own indigenous substitutes for the ARJ21 and C919 aircraft in the long run though.
This way the industry would become sanction proof and not suffer from the same issues which plagued the semiconductor industry.
The US can sanction sales of aircraft parts for any token less than plausible reason.
These aircraft could also take the plunge and use more modern construction materials. They could be done over the next decade.
As usual the issue with China IMHO is lack of native engines. I think their industry is finally getting the hang of it and they did make investments into advanced materials at least since a decade ago. But it will take time for the knowledge gained thus far to percolate through the industry.
Skywatcher
Captain
Perhaps the biggest mistake was assuming that the scope clauses would change. The second would have been how technologically ambitious it was.
I don't doubt there were organizational issues which led to this outcome. But if Japan can manufacture the Kawasaki P-1 and C-2 they can build a regional airliner. They even manufacture 787 aircraft wings for Boeing made of Japanese manufactured composite materials.
Skywatcher
Captain
That was Kawasaki.
Mitsuibishi never built a post WWII aircraft larger than a fighter/light business jet until the MRJ/Spacejet (the YS-11 was built by a consortium).
If they wouldn't accept help from Boeing, they probably wouldn't be very eager to talk to Kawasaki.
Skywatcher
Captain
Kawasaki would have been the better choice to develop a Japanese regional jetliner (though they'd have to shrink the proposed YPX, since Boeing wouldn't take too kindly a full sized YPX competing with the 737 series, and Kawasaki does derive a lot of revenue from building parts for Boeing's jetliners).
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Here is what this Sr(*(& Aboulafia said about ARJ 21 right keep dreaming. And where is bombardier or Embraer now they are bankrupt and Embraer is close to bankrupt
Product Overlap And National Pride. China’s first national jet, Comac’s ARJ21, is basically a failure – it’s heavy, technologically obsolete, and very late. After several decades of existence and four years of production, just a handful have been delivered to a few marginal Chinese airlines. However, in theory, it directly competes with Embraer’s E175. It would be a remarkable – and unlikely – admission of failure for China to give up on that national jet, yet that would be the inevitable result of acquiring Embraer since the E175 is vastly superior.
Some more
What aircraft has Comac built?
So far it has built two jets - the ARJ21 and the C919 - and is working with Russia on a third.
Only the 90-seat, ARJ21 jet is in service. However, after suffering from delays, and being plagued with noise and other problems, the aircraft has been roundly rejected as inferior to planes from competitors such as Brazil's Embraer and Canada's Bombardier.
Among the critics is Teal Group aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia.
He says that while the aircraft was touted as proof China would be the next big jet maker, it turned into an "overweight and stunningly obsolete product that has no relevance outside of China's tiny regional airline sector".
Product Overlap And National Pride. China’s first national jet, Comac’s ARJ21, is basically a failure – it’s heavy, technologically obsolete, and very late. After several decades of existence and four years of production, just a handful have been delivered to a few marginal Chinese airlines. However, in theory, it directly competes with Embraer’s E175. It would be a remarkable – and unlikely – admission of failure for China to give up on that national jet, yet that would be the inevitable result of acquiring Embraer since the E175 is vastly superior.
Some more
What aircraft has Comac built?
So far it has built two jets - the ARJ21 and the C919 - and is working with Russia on a third.
Only the 90-seat, ARJ21 jet is in service. However, after suffering from delays, and being plagued with noise and other problems, the aircraft has been roundly rejected as inferior to planes from competitors such as Brazil's Embraer and Canada's Bombardier.
Among the critics is Teal Group aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia.
He says that while the aircraft was touted as proof China would be the next big jet maker, it turned into an "overweight and stunningly obsolete product that has no relevance outside of China's tiny regional airline sector".