Chinese Aviation Industry

WZ 16 aka Ardiden 3C. Short spec 1800SHP; 5000hr. I guess with WZ 16 China finally has a powerful and highly efficient Turboshaft engine to power the next iteration of WZ10. Andmost important a new ASW heli that have its on board computer for sonar and Yu 7 torpedo and or YJ9 missile.Longer radius of operation. Totoro, Blackstone take notice

From globalsecurity
WZ16 turboshaft
The WZ16 turboshaft, with a power more than 1,800 shp, is expected to enter mass production in 2014, for the Z15 (AC352) helicopter series. Eurocopter and Avicopter are jointly developing the 15,000-pound-class EC175/AC352. France-based helicopter engine manufacturer Turbomeca is working on a 50-50 basis with China's AVIC Engine on the WZ16 turboshaft. AVIC Engine is working on the compressor and accessory gearbox, while Turbomeca is responsible for the combustor, turbines and control system. The engine is derived from Turbomeca's Ardiden engine. The agreement covers development, production and support. The two companies committed to have the engine certified in China the year before the AC352 is certified. The AC352 was initially to be offered only with Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67Es, like the Eurocopter EC175.

The latest engine added to the Turbomeca (Safran group) range, the Ardiden is designed for medium helicopters in the 5 to 6.5 ton class, both civil and military. The first application for the new Ardiden turboshaft engine was the Indian twin-engine helicopter Dhruv (formerly known as the Advanced Light Helicopter, or ALH), built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Its simple, modular design makes this a very economical powerplant in terms of total cost of ownership. At the same time, the Ardiden is designed to carry out even the most demanding missions, while retaining its performance under hot/high conditions. The first variant, the Ardiden 1H1 (dubbed Shakti in India) was co-developed and co-produced with HAL for the Dhruv helicopter.

Featuring a very simple architecture, the Ardiden engine is composed of three main modules for easy maintenance: the accessory/reduction gearbox, a gas generator, and a power turbine. It offers a potential time between overhauls of up to 6,000 hours. The development of the Ardiden 3 engine for heavy helicopters drew on experience with the Ardiden 1. The general layout is the same, with a dual centrifugal compressor and a free turbine. The only major difference is that the engine will not have a reduction gearbox. Analysis of the weight budget showed that, in this power class, it's better to manage speed reduction (from 21,000 rpm at the turbine shaft to 300 or 400 rpm for the rotor) via the main transmission unit.

From Safran website
Ardiden
Launched in 2003, the new-generation Ardiden covers a power range of 1,400 - 2,000 shp and is intended for use in five-to-eight ton single and twin-engine helicopters. The engine is particularly well-suited to demanding mission profiles, delivering sustained performance in hot-and-high conditions.

The Ardiden range features a remarkably compact modular architecture. The gas generator includes two centrifugal stages attached to a reverse-flow combustion chamber, a single-stage gas generator turbine and a two-stage power turbine. This design ensures that the engine remains very cost-effective, particularly in terms of maintenance and cost of ownership.

All Ardidens are equipped with the latest-generation, dual-channel Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC). The Ardiden family is divided into two groups: the Ardiden 1, which offers 1,400 shp with growth potential to 1,700 shp, and the Ardiden 3 (in development), covering 1,700 to 2,000 shp.

Today, over 220 Ardiden 1 are in service throughout the world. They are installed in the Druhv, LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) and LUH (Light Utility Helicopter), all built by India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.; Russian Helicopters' Ka-62; and the AC352 from China's AVIC Helicopter.


The Ardiden 3C is fitted in the Chinese AC352, jointly developed by Avic Helicopter with Airbus Helicopters. The result of a 50/50 partnership between Safran Helicopter Engines and AVIC Engine, the Ardiden 3C was ground tested in France in November 2013. The engine will be certified by EASA under the designation Ardiden 3C, and by the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) under the designation WZ16.

The 3C is characterized by excellent reliability, low-cost maintenance (TBO 3,000 hours on entry-into-service and 5,000 hours once mature) and extremely low fuel consumption (at least ten per cent less than other engines in the same power range).

Hendrik_2000 said:

WZ 16 aka Ardiden 3C. Short spec 1800SHP; 5000hr. I guess with WZ 16 China finally has a powerful and highly efficient Turboshaft engine to power the next iteration of WZ10. Andmost important a new ASW heli that have its on board computer for sonar and Yu 7 torpedo and or YJ9 missile.Longer radius of operation. Totoro, Blackstone take notice

From globalsecurity
WZ16 turboshaft
The WZ16 turboshaft, with a power more than 1,800 shp, is expected to enter mass production in 2014, for the Z15 (AC352) helicopter series. Eurocopter and Avicopter are jointly developing the 15,000-pound-class EC175/AC352. France-based helicopter engine manufacturer Turbomeca is working on a 50-50 basis with China's AVIC Engine on the WZ16 turboshaft. AVIC Engine is working on the compressor and accessory gearbox, while Turbomeca is responsible for the combustor, turbines and control system. The engine is derived from Turbomeca's Ardiden engine. The agreement covers development, production and support. The two companies committed to have the engine certified in China the year before the AC352 is certified. The AC352 was initially to be offered only with Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67Es, like the Eurocopter EC175.

The latest engine added to the Turbomeca (Safran group) range, the Ardiden is designed for medium helicopters in the 5 to 6.5 ton class, both civil and military. The first application for the new Ardiden turboshaft engine was the Indian twin-engine helicopter Dhruv (formerly known as the Advanced Light Helicopter, or ALH), built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Its simple, modular design makes this a very economical powerplant in terms of total cost of ownership. At the same time, the Ardiden is designed to carry out even the most demanding missions, while retaining its performance under hot/high conditions. The first variant, the Ardiden 1H1 (dubbed Shakti in India) was co-developed and co-produced with HAL for the Dhruv helicopter.

Featuring a very simple architecture, the Ardiden engine is composed of three main modules for easy maintenance: the accessory/reduction gearbox, a gas generator, and a power turbine. It offers a potential time between overhauls of up to 6,000 hours. The development of the Ardiden 3 engine for heavy helicopters drew on experience with the Ardiden 1. The general layout is the same, with a dual centrifugal compressor and a free turbine. The only major difference is that the engine will not have a reduction gearbox. Analysis of the weight budget showed that, in this power class, it's better to manage speed reduction (from 21,000 rpm at the turbine shaft to 300 or 400 rpm for the rotor) via the main transmission unit.

From Safran website
Ardiden
Launched in 2003, the new-generation Ardiden covers a power range of 1,400 - 2,000 shp and is intended for use in five-to-eight ton single and twin-engine helicopters. The engine is particularly well-suited to demanding mission profiles, delivering sustained performance in hot-and-high conditions.

The Ardiden range features a remarkably compact modular architecture. The gas generator includes two centrifugal stages attached to a reverse-flow combustion chamber, a single-stage gas generator turbine and a two-stage power turbine. This design ensures that the engine remains very cost-effective, particularly in terms of maintenance and cost of ownership.

All Ardidens are equipped with the latest-generation, dual-channel Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC). The Ardiden family is divided into two groups: the Ardiden 1, which offers 1,400 shp with growth potential to 1,700 shp, and the Ardiden 3 (in development), covering 1,700 to 2,000 shp.

Today, over 220 Ardiden 1 are in service throughout the world. They are installed in the Druhv, LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) and LUH (Light Utility Helicopter), all built by India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.; Russian Helicopters' Ka-62; and the AC352 from China's AVIC Helicopter.

The Ardiden 3C is fitted in the Chinese AC352, jointly developed by Avic Helicopter with Airbus Helicopters. The result of a 50/50 partnership between Safran Helicopter Engines and AVIC Engine, the Ardiden 3C was ground tested in France in November 2013. The engine will be certified by EASA under the designation Ardiden 3C, and by the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) under the designation WZ16.

The 3C is characterized by excellent reliability, low-cost maintenance (TBO 3,000 hours on entry-into-service and 5,000 hours once mature) and extremely low fuel consumption (at least ten per cent less than other engines in the same power range).

Click to expand...

I don't think the AC353 with it's Ardiden 3C engine would be turn into a military aircraft as it has French technological input and therefore subject to EU arms embargo if use in the military. What would be gain from this joint venture,is the engineering knowledge towards building better helicopters civilian or military.

KIENCHIN said:

I don't think the AC353 with it's Ardiden 3C engine would be turn into a military aircraft as it has French technological input and therefore subject to EU arms embargo if use in the military. What would be gain from this joint venture,is the engineering knowledge towards building better helicopters civilian or military.

Click to expand...

The Z-9 was based on the SA365, the WZ-8 was based on the Arriel 1 and 2 series, all of these were officially sold to China (including various patents). The Chinese use them extensively in the military, everybody knows that, and no question was asked. Today SAFRAN continues to work closely with AVIC on various project developments.

KIENCHIN said:

I don't think the AC353 with it's Ardiden 3C engine would be turn into a military aircraft as it has French technological input and therefore subject to EU arms embargo if use in the military. What would be gain from this joint venture,is the engineering knowledge towards building better helicopters civilian or military.

Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood my posting WZ16 is joint venture between China and French where each party design the hot and cold section of the turboengine. But it is distinct from Ardiden 3C even though it was based on Ardiden 3C. I just use the brochure to give a of comparable description as well as spec
So yeah WZ 16 is Chinese intellectual property.Just as WZ6 engine was based on Ariel 1&2.
As long as China can make the hot section of WZ16 what prevented it from being used on ASW version of EC 175.

Hendrik_2000 said:

WZ 16 aka Ardiden 3C. Short spec 1800SHP; 5000hr. I guess with WZ 16 China finally has a powerful and highly efficient Turboshaft engine to power the next iteration of WZ10. Andmost important a new ASW heli that have its on board computer for sonar and Yu 7 torpedo and or YJ9 missile.Longer radius of operation. Totoro, Blackstone take notice

From globalsecurity
WZ16 turboshaft
The WZ16 turboshaft, with a power more than 1,800 shp, is expected to enter mass production in 2014, for the Z15 (AC352) helicopter series. Eurocopter and Avicopter are jointly developing the 15,000-pound-class EC175/AC352. France-based helicopter engine manufacturer Turbomeca is working on a 50-50 basis with China's AVIC Engine on the WZ16 turboshaft. AVIC Engine is working on the compressor and accessory gearbox, while Turbomeca is responsible for the combustor, turbines and control system. The engine is derived from Turbomeca's Ardiden engine. The agreement covers development, production and support. The two companies committed to have the engine certified in China the year before the AC352 is certified. The AC352 was initially to be offered only with Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67Es, like the Eurocopter EC175.

The latest engine added to the Turbomeca (Safran group) range, the Ardiden is designed for medium helicopters in the 5 to 6.5 ton class, both civil and military. The first application for the new Ardiden turboshaft engine was the Indian twin-engine helicopter Dhruv (formerly known as the Advanced Light Helicopter, or ALH), built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Its simple, modular design makes this a very economical powerplant in terms of total cost of ownership. At the same time, the Ardiden is designed to carry out even the most demanding missions, while retaining its performance under hot/high conditions. The first variant, the Ardiden 1H1 (dubbed Shakti in India) was co-developed and co-produced with HAL for the Dhruv helicopter.

Featuring a very simple architecture, the Ardiden engine is composed of three main modules for easy maintenance: the accessory/reduction gearbox, a gas generator, and a power turbine. It offers a potential time between overhauls of up to 6,000 hours. The development of the Ardiden 3 engine for heavy helicopters drew on experience with the Ardiden 1. The general layout is the same, with a dual centrifugal compressor and a free turbine. The only major difference is that the engine will not have a reduction gearbox. Analysis of the weight budget showed that, in this power class, it's better to manage speed reduction (from 21,000 rpm at the turbine shaft to 300 or 400 rpm for the rotor) via the main transmission unit.

From Safran website
Ardiden
Launched in 2003, the new-generation Ardiden covers a power range of 1,400 - 2,000 shp and is intended for use in five-to-eight ton single and twin-engine helicopters. The engine is particularly well-suited to demanding mission profiles, delivering sustained performance in hot-and-high conditions.

The Ardiden range features a remarkably compact modular architecture. The gas generator includes two centrifugal stages attached to a reverse-flow combustion chamber, a single-stage gas generator turbine and a two-stage power turbine. This design ensures that the engine remains very cost-effective, particularly in terms of maintenance and cost of ownership.

All Ardidens are equipped with the latest-generation, dual-channel Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC). The Ardiden family is divided into two groups: the Ardiden 1, which offers 1,400 shp with growth potential to 1,700 shp, and the Ardiden 3 (in development), covering 1,700 to 2,000 shp.

Today, over 220 Ardiden 1 are in service throughout the world. They are installed in the Druhv, LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) and LUH (Light Utility Helicopter), all built by India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.; Russian Helicopters' Ka-62; and the AC352 from China's AVIC Helicopter.

The Ardiden 3C is fitted in the Chinese AC352, jointly developed by Avic Helicopter with Airbus Helicopters. The result of a 50/50 partnership between Safran Helicopter Engines and AVIC Engine, the Ardiden 3C was ground tested in France in November 2013. The engine will be certified by EASA under the designation Ardiden 3C, and by the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) under the designation WZ16.

The 3C is characterized by excellent reliability, low-cost maintenance (TBO 3,000 hours on entry-into-service and 5,000 hours once mature) and extremely low fuel consumption (at least ten per cent less than other engines in the same power range).

Click to expand...

I see, I see. Very nice. Very nice indeed. A few more successes like the WZ16, and I'll come around on China's engine manufacturing capabilities. Not to be a wet blanket, but it's jointly developed with a Western firm. Nevertheless, it's a step in the right direction.

superdog said:

The Z-9 was based on the SA365, the WZ-8 was based on the Arriel 1 and 2 series, all of these were officially sold to China (including various patents). The Chinese use them extensively in the military, everybody knows that, and no question was asked. Today SAFRAN continues to work closely with AVIC on various project developments.

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Click to expand...

The SA365 and it's Arriel engine production license was granted in the early eighties before Tiananmen Square incident and subsequent arms embargo by the west.

KIENCHIN said:

The SA365 and it's Arriel engine production license was granted in the early eighties before Tiananmen Square incident and subsequent arms embargo by the west.

Click to expand...

Nope, your assumption was pretty far from reality.

100% domestic production of the Z-9 did not happen untill the end of 1990, Aérospatiale continued to ship parts from 1989 to late 1990, it was only since 1991 that AVIC was able to produce the Z-9 fully domestically. Further licensed production contract of the Z-9 was signed in 1993, Engine tech transfer of the Arriel 2C happened in the 2000s (also used on Z-9), and now you have the Ardiden 3C/WZ-16 cooperation.

Other examples include Pielstick engines, MTU engines, RR Kamewa jets, etc., many of them happened after 1989, were used on military equipments without much effort to conceal, and goes through the import>domestic production>improve process. The Europeans knew this for decades, but for techs that can be considered dual-use, they apparently don't care as much as you've imagined. I guess money is just too hard to resist.

I'm not saying they will or will not militarize the H175/AC352, but all these prior examples show that if they decide to do so, they can, with minimal repercussions.

superdog said:

Nope, your assumption was pretty far from reality.

100% domestic production of the Z-9 did not happen untill the end of 1990, Aérospatiale continued to ship parts from 1989 to late 1990, it was only since 1991 that AVIC was able to produce the Z-9 fully domestically. Further licensed production contract of the Z-9 was signed in 1993, Engine tech transfer of the Arriel 2C happened in the 2000s (also used on Z-9), and now you have the Ardiden 3C/WZ-16 cooperation.

Other examples include Pielstick engines, MTU engines, RR Kamewa jets, etc., many of them happened after 1989, were used on military equipments without much effort to conceal, and goes through the import>domestic production>improve process. The Europeans knew this for decades, but for techs that can be considered dual-use, they apparently don't care as much as you've imagined.

I'm not saying they will or will not militarize the H175/AC352, but all these prior examples show that if they decide to do so, they can, with minimal repercussions.

Click to expand...

Well we shall see, I don't think uncle Sam would think very kindly to the French helping the Chinese have the Z10 and Z8 reach it's full military potential with the Ardiden based WZ16. As for the Pielstick and MTU diesel engines they were license build for the civilian market and I agree the Europeans tend to to a blind eye to this for the sake of business. Another example you might want to add where the Chinese continue to receive help is the WS9 turbofan engine.

KIENCHIN said:

Well we shall see, I don't think uncle Sam would think very kindly to the French helping the Chinese have the Z10 and Z8 reach it's full military potential with the Ardiden based WZ16. As for the Pielstick and MTU diesel engines they were license build for the civilian market and I agree the Europeans tend to to a blind eye to this for the sake of business. Another example you might want to add where the Chinese continue to receive help is the WS9 turbofan engine.

Click to expand...

The US certainly take a stricter position on these issues due to a greater conflict of interest, the same thing will never happen with GE or PW (PT6C was one example), but their control over European suppliers are fairly limited.

There is of course still a limit on what the Europeans would sell, exclusively military high end equipment like newer fighter jet engines and military radars are out of the question (spey was older tech so some exceptions were made), they also can't sell things like Airbus for AWACS because that would be way too obvious. But other than these "big things" there tend to be a lot of wiggle room. In developing a defense industry the Chinese learned a lot for the Europeans aside form the Russians.

superdog said:

The US certainly take a stricter position on these issues due to a greater conflict of interest, the same thing will never happen with GE or PW (PT6C was one example), but their control over European suppliers are fairly limited.

There is of course still a limit on what the Europeans would sell, exclusively military high end equipment like newer fighter jet engines and military radars are out of the question (spey was older tech so some exceptions were made), they also can't sell things like Airbus for AWACS because that would be way too obvious. But other than these "big things" there tend to be a lot of wiggle room. In developing a defense industry the Chinese learned a lot for the Europeans aside form the Russians.

Click to expand...

Absolutely, European technology is way ahead of anything the Russian has and the willingness to sell ant TOT jusy to keep their defence industry afloat. If not for the arms embargo because of Tianamen, China's technology base both civilian and military would be way more advance then today.