Chinese ATGM discussion

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
ATGM platforms are a multi role system although intended for anti vehicle missions, they have been used as antipersonnel, antibaracade, anti structure and even antiship missiles. So having a Varity is a good move. Lighter types have proven effective in urban battles in both west and east, well longer range models are capable tank and ship killers.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Surprised no one cross posted this yet. Via CDF, first posted by Bluejay.

China offers a 'fire-and-forget' infantry antitank missile

IHS Jane’s 360

China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) used the Eurosatory 2014 exhibition to publicise its new Red Arrow 12 shoulder-fired antitank missile system. This is China's first infantry-launched fire-and-forget antitank weapon.

Designed to be carried and fired by a single soldier, a complete Red Arrow 12 system weighs 22 kg, with the launch tube and missile accounting for 17 kg of this total weight. The launch tube is 1.25 m long, but no official figures have been released for the diameter of the tube, or the length and diameter of the missile.

To judge from a photograph showing a missile launch, the missile is about 98 cm long and 13.5 cm in diameter, while the launch tube is about 17 cm in diameter.

According to a leaflet released by NORINCO, the missile uses an uncooled imaging infrared (IIR) seeker to provide all-weather day and night capability, but a day-only version based on a television imaging seeker is also available. The maximum range of 4,000 m cited in the leaflet was for the day version, while the IIR variant has a maximum range of 2,000 km, IHS Jane's was told by a NORINCO official.

Red Arrow 12 is a lock-on-before launch missile. Once launched, it will home autonomously onto its target, allowing the operator to immediately take cover or reload to engage another target.
The use of a soft-launch configuration allows the missile to be fired from inside buildings or bunkers. Once the missile is clear of the launch tube, forward-folding cruciform wings and tail surfaces of constant chord deploy rearward to assume their operating positions. The main motor then ignites to power the missile, which can then fly either an arched top-attack trajectory or a direct low-level flight path to the target.

At an incidence of 0°, the missile's tandem shaped-charge warhead can penetrate up to 1,100 mm of rolled homogenous armour protected by explosive reactive armour, said NORINCO, and the system can be used tanks, bunkers, buildings, small surface craft, and slow-flying helicopters.

The system is "newly developed", IHS Jane's was told, and is already in service with China's People's Liberation Army. In its current form, Red Arrow 12 is a shoulder-fired infantry weapon, but would be suitable for installation on combat vehicles.

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So the PLA finally have a Javelin equivalent, fire forget, soft launch, with top attack and direct attack modes.
And a penetration of 1100mm RHA should be able to defeat many MBTs even without top attack.

No pictures yet unfortunately.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
So the PLA finally have a Javelin equivalent, fire forget, soft launch, with top attack and direct attack modes.
And a penetration of 1100mm RHA should be able to defeat many MBTs even without top attack.

No pictures yet unfortunately.

Umm, not sure about "many MBTs." Jane's article mentioned 1100mm penetration against rolled homogeneous steel, but nothing about performance against Chobham armor.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Umm, not sure about "many MBTs." Jane's article mentioned 1100mm penetration against rolled homogeneous steel, but nothing about performance against Chobham armor.

Despite the relative inaccuracy of comparing all armour types using "RHA penetration," I think it is still arguably the most effective measurement way have of at least assessing an attacker's potency.
Of course, we don't know how effective Chobham is, but then again we don't know how effective the armour of many modern tanks are (having the brand name of "Chobham" obviously doesn't make it automatically a league better than all the other ceramic/composite combinations in the world). However, a penetration of 1100mm is definitely on the quite high side for troop carried ATGMs. I've read JAvelin has 400 to >600mm RHA equivalent penetration.
So my point stands.

(Even if we ignore the quesiton of how effective Chobham is, most tanks in the world lack Chobham anyway, so in that sense my statement is correct, although I meant it even including the possibility of tanks with Chobham)
 

Insignius

Junior Member
Umm, not sure about "many MBTs." Jane's article mentioned 1100mm penetration against rolled homogeneous steel, but nothing about performance against Chobham armor.

There is no Chobham on the top of your beloved Abrams, when the HJ-12 missile comes crashing down in Top-Attack mode. And even if, it would be just a few ten millimeters worth and as thin as paper.

The only thing being chop-ham'ed after that would be the sorry crew of your tank.


The HJ-12, along with China's new NLOS long range ATGM and the SADARM-styled sensor-guided top-attack cluster bombs for the artillery, are a revolutionary leap in the Chinese ground based anti-tank capability. In the future, China's adversaries better invest in active defense systems for their tanks in the hope of intercepting maybe just a few of these munitions, or they will have to deal with very heavy attrition in their armored forces.
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
According to wiki TOW penetration capabilities are more closer to 700mm than 1100, so I would assume that none of the HJ-8 variant have claimed 1400mm penetration figures. According to Serbian dudes in tanknet HJ-8 missiles or they Pakistani clones (captured by Serbs) fired by the Bosnian's penetrated 500mm instead of 600mm as claimed by many sources.

Original armor penetration estimates were 600 mm for BGM-71A/B and 700–800 mm for BGM-71C. However, according to a now declassified CIA study, the true penetration values against a vertical target are much lower—just 430 mm for basic TOW and 630 mm for Improved TOW.
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Poor penetration capabilities of ATGM missiles has not discussed much publicly but could it be reason why so many countries develop top attack ATGM's? I know that roof of the tank it much thinner and therefore good place to attack but perhaps ATGM penetration capabilities aren't that good as marketing departments claim... something to think about.
 
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Insignius

Junior Member
161036epwwrcscc57g5szr.jpg

From CD,

truly looks like a Javelin. And somehow more lightweight than the US-version. CLU looks very barebones and lightweight as well. Kinda like the Japanese Type 01 LMAT, which is similiarily weighted, though sports a 120mm missile.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
According to a leaflet released by NORINCO, the missile uses an uncooled imaging infrared (IIR) seeker to provide all-weather day and night capability, but a day-only version based on a television imaging seeker is also available.

Is this the first Chinese ATGM to use uncooled IIR seeker?
 

Insignius

Junior Member
chin_hj12_copy_novyy_razmer.jpg175659zq5ulfruuyyuzrsx.jpg180617w1k1j166zzc97ww6.jpg

The original photos from a Russian defense blog.
;)

I guess China finally arrived in the world of modern infantry portable anti-armor weapons.
 
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